Struggling with this principle
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scripture is too high for us, and amen! we ought to always ponder it in our hearts
the love of Christ is beyond knowing, and we are to know it -- such knowledge is a gift not a thing attainable through human desire, will or effort alone.
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God!
(Ephesians 3:17-19)
scripture is testimony of Christ, His lovethe love of Christ is beyond knowing, and we are to know it -- such knowledge is a gift not a thing attainable through human desire, will or effort alone.
oh, have you discovered the answer to the rhetorical questions of Psalm 139? where can i flee from your presence? in the land of Nod?
let's go east of Eden! maybe by doing so we can restore the deity of God, which you've found a fault in!
Hebrew wedding/betrothal ceremony language -- as you were previously shown
let's go east of Eden! maybe by doing so we can restore the deity of God, which you've found a fault in!
Hebrew wedding/betrothal ceremony language -- as you were previously shown
written many times in the replies to this thread is the saying, that love which is foreordained is no love at all.
where do we get this idea?
why is it the ubiquitous answer people give when faced with the sovereignty of God juxtaposed with the apparent autonomy of humanity?
is this a Biblical principle? where does scripture say that someone created to love cannot possibly have real love?
is it written somewhere that if you cannot choose to hate God it is impossible that you love Him?
we say this as tho it is obvious 'common sense' knowledge. but is it? or is it vanity?
your mother, when you were born - did she consciously choose to love you, or was it inevitable that she would?
your wife or your husband - did you make a list, weigh the pros and cons of loving them, and make some kind of informed decision based on statistical analysis? or did your heart run after them independent of any conscious deliberation of reason?
i choose to love my beloved because i cannot choose aught else.
this is a profound mystery, too deep for me; my choosing is nothing more than acquiescence.
no amount of will on my part can remove or alter that love: it is woven in my fabric.
is this not love, on account of my not having chosen it, but it having chosen me?
where do we get this idea?
why is it the ubiquitous answer people give when faced with the sovereignty of God juxtaposed with the apparent autonomy of humanity?
is this a Biblical principle? where does scripture say that someone created to love cannot possibly have real love?
is it written somewhere that if you cannot choose to hate God it is impossible that you love Him?
we say this as tho it is obvious 'common sense' knowledge. but is it? or is it vanity?
your mother, when you were born - did she consciously choose to love you, or was it inevitable that she would?
your wife or your husband - did you make a list, weigh the pros and cons of loving them, and make some kind of informed decision based on statistical analysis? or did your heart run after them independent of any conscious deliberation of reason?
i choose to love my beloved because i cannot choose aught else.
this is a profound mystery, too deep for me; my choosing is nothing more than acquiescence.
no amount of will on my part can remove or alter that love: it is woven in my fabric.
is this not love, on account of my not having chosen it, but it having chosen me?
Looking at the interpretation of God it can help define words and how they are used in those parables .
We know from the Genesis account that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood a pagan foundation. Out of sight out of mind . No faith in God not seen. That is witnessed by the first Christian martyr Abel, Cain plowed him under.
God in order to reveal the bride of Christ also called Christian the last name he named the bride. He did wrestle with Jacob the deceiver in a vision to represent those who do wrestles with things of the flesh. The Holy Spirit over powered gave him a little limp in his understanding or walk. The daily bread reminder.
Jacob ....dead in trespasses and sin without God and without a living hope.
Israel.... born again from above one that overcame Jacob as the Spirit of Christ worked in Jacob to both will and do His good pleasure.
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Genesis 32;24-28
From that interpretation we can find the meaning of the bride of Christ whose name was changed by the father to Christian residents of the city named after her husband Christ .In order to represent those who do wrestle against flesh and blood and overcome because they do have the born again Spirit of Christ. It has nothing to do with the powerless, faithless, corrupted flesh and blood of any nation.
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I have no problem with God foreknowing what choices people will make using their own free will..
Let me try an analogy::
Imagine if you will that they invent a time travel machine that allows a person to be beamed into the future and you are the first person to be beamed into the future.. The Big day comes and you are projected into the future to the year 2035.. You are suspended over the suburb in an invisible bubble that you can see out of but no one can see into.. Below you are two young girls playing in the backyard of a home with tea set and dolls.. A woman who you assume id their mother comes out the back door with some cup cakes on a tray some Chocolate ones and some strawberry ones.. She offers them to the girls.. One girl selects a chocolate cake and the other selects a strawberry..
You now know that in 15 years time two little girls who do not exist in 2020 will be sitting in the backyard of a house playing with a tea set.. You know that one will decide to have a chocolate cup cake and the other will select a strawberry cup cake.. Does your foreknowledge of this then make their choices forced? does it take away their decision and turn them into forced zombie like beings to cannot make a choice for themselves? No..
You do not have control over the little girls choices simply because you foreknow what choices they are going to make even before they where born..
Free will can exist in the here and now.. But God who see's the beginning and the end and see's all our times from His time can foreknow everything and thus know at the foundation of creation that his universe project will produce the results His will wants..
Let me try an analogy::
Imagine if you will that they invent a time travel machine that allows a person to be beamed into the future and you are the first person to be beamed into the future.. The Big day comes and you are projected into the future to the year 2035.. You are suspended over the suburb in an invisible bubble that you can see out of but no one can see into.. Below you are two young girls playing in the backyard of a home with tea set and dolls.. A woman who you assume id their mother comes out the back door with some cup cakes on a tray some Chocolate ones and some strawberry ones.. She offers them to the girls.. One girl selects a chocolate cake and the other selects a strawberry..
You now know that in 15 years time two little girls who do not exist in 2020 will be sitting in the backyard of a house playing with a tea set.. You know that one will decide to have a chocolate cup cake and the other will select a strawberry cup cake.. Does your foreknowledge of this then make their choices forced? does it take away their decision and turn them into forced zombie like beings to cannot make a choice for themselves? No..
You do not have control over the little girls choices simply because you foreknow what choices they are going to make even before they where born..
Free will can exist in the here and now.. But God who see's the beginning and the end and see's all our times from His time can foreknow everything and thus know at the foundation of creation that his universe project will produce the results His will wants..
According to Scripture, when does God know you? When does one become a son? Stay away from man made theology and just stick with Scripture.
Galatians 4
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Galatians 4
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Thats why in the analogy i had you up in the air in an invisible bubble..
Yes but in a just manor.. God cannot be corrupt or unjust in the way he influences us.. He has given us His will through the scriptures and his Holy Spirit works upon our conscience.. But people can and do resist His Holy Spirit which is recorded in the Bible.. As Stephen the first martyr declared::
Acts 7: KJV
51 "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
Yes but in a just manor.. God cannot be corrupt or unjust in the way he influences us.. He has given us His will through the scriptures and his Holy Spirit works upon our conscience.. But people can and do resist His Holy Spirit which is recorded in the Bible.. As Stephen the first martyr declared::
Acts 7: KJV
51 "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
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All knowing can simply mean you are 100% aware of everything past and present. I think it is abundantly clear that God orchestrates the future. He steers the present like you would a car. He knows what the final needs to look like. Let’s call it a destination. Prediction can be based on assessing variables. In chess you can manipulate the other player to make moves he doesn’t want to make. If your insight is keen enough and know your opponent you can with certainty control the outcome. If you stated at the beginning of the game I will capture your king on this square in 14 moves, then you do it, is it a prediction of sight or by design if you masterfully played the game? Free will is true. God doesn’t predetermine if Jimmy gets saved and Paula goes to Hell. What He did determine is that some people are specifically needed to “win the game” so they are called. And who He calls are glorified. He gives those with a special purpose, special gifts. The Body has many parts. Some may be more important than others. However, all are the The Body. It’s an invitation to everyone, but some get cordially invited.
Can you guys please at least make an effort to stay on topic.
It seems to be a feature of CC that you start a thread to ask a question and within a couple of days the thread is hijacked by several people who go on to have an irrelevant argument between themselves.
And it is an argument. A pointless, circular argument.
And yet you people claim to have been anointed by the Holy Spirit.
God help us!
It seems to be a feature of CC that you start a thread to ask a question and within a couple of days the thread is hijacked by several people who go on to have an irrelevant argument between themselves.
And it is an argument. A pointless, circular argument.
And yet you people claim to have been anointed by the Holy Spirit.
God help us!
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Yes John 6 does inform us of the will of God as it is written. Not as a demonstration by the flesh of Jesus .He said his own flesh seen, the temporal profits for nothing . They were looking for a fleshly god. those kind of disciples walked away in unbelief. (No faith) It was the unseen work of the father working with the Son of man that did strengthen the weakened flesh of His Son . They did not mix the faith that comes from hearing God in what they saw or heard.
When Jesus said drink by blood because they had no faith they could not search out the parable of "drink the blood of men" (john6) They thought drink the blood of mankind was a abomination because of their lack of faith . "no understanding from God"
Peter was given the hearing or power of the gospel. He said to whom can I go you have the living words .Looking at the flesh of sinful mankind does not add to Christ's faith. It diminishes . . . faith (the eternal not seen ) making it desolate.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:60-67
