Are they a wolf in sheeps clothes?

Thank You, I will indeed begin looking into them both.

When you say, "that kind of faith is biblical", what is you understanding of what that biblical faith is, and how is it used, in practical terms?
Give an example, if you would please.

“[E. W. Kenyon] was a faith-healer not in the Pentecostal tradition, but in the tradition of Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science.
^
I definitely do not buy the mental training guide aspect.
Even though Faith is believed solely in the mind, I do not buy it can be taught in a "How to Think" manual.



And I see your meaning concerning the Word of Faith Principles and Outlines. Yeah, that is not the "Faith" I was posting about at all. I actually don't have issue with the "Name and Claim it" Philosophy as long as it is dealing solely in a spiritual manner like warfare and healing. But still that all hinges on true belief that God will heal you. But the "Name it and Claim it" for financial gain is not even remotely close to being scripture or Bible based. Sounds more like an used car salesman who found making a buck in Church was easier than getting people to buy a broken down piece of junk.

Hebrews 11:1-2 New International Version (NIV)
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Confidence and assurance are key in faith.

Scripture speaks on that there is a gift or God
given faith but also there is a belief or mankind’s response of faith. This scripture includes
both words in the same verse.

Hebrews 11:6 New International Version (NIV) 6 And without faith it is impossible to
please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he
rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Here are two examples:
John 6:28-29 New International Version (NIV)
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The Greek word here for believe is different than the scriptures that refer to faith as a gift.
We have pisteuo

4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be
persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human
believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith￾believing).

Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self￾serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's in birthing of faith.

Ephesians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it
is the gift of God—

4102 Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be
produced by people.

In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence) yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e.
the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

Thank you for that explanation, but I was looking more for a personal example or that of a church member.
When you pray, who and/or what do you put your faith on or in?
And in whom and/or on what do you look to for this faith or confident assurance in God to answer your prayer?

We put our faith in God. Assurance isnt a blind faith. Assurance comes from knowing what God has already done, the fulfilled promises, the evidence God provides us in creation that shows us He is all powerful, Intelligent, and can do all things. The actual initial response by the Spirit once we believe in the Lord for salvation is spiritually in itself evidence that deserves our faith.

All of this assurance gives us the confidence to hope and believe that even the unseen or impossible will come to pass or be made possible.

Athiest often try to call our faith blind or God of the gaps argument. But in reality they have the blind faith in science and a science of the gaps dilemma.

A definite problem for sure.

To be perfectly open and honest with you, I teach the very thing you consider to be theologically inaccurate.
That is why I said you were ignorant.
It is because I know what faith is and how it works in the kingdom of God.
You talk about the promises God has fulfilled, but what about the open ones?
Are they just empty promises?
And concerning words of faith, do you understand what Paul was saying in Romans 10:8-10?
To simplify it, it is simply to say out loud or verbally, what you believe in you heart.
It is that simple.
That is what word of faith means and what it is about.
What you believe and say could be good, bad, uplifting, or destructive.
Whatever you believe in you heart and say with your mouth, again regardless of what it is, that shall come to pass, and that is what word of faith is, and what Paul was talking about in the above scripture mentioned.
It is a scriptural truth, law, and fact or reality.
I don't listen to modern day music, so I don't know what the lyrics are.
But I do know what the word of God say about the things, you apparently disagree with.
The way I see it is, you, and those who believe as you do, don't really believe what is written.
In particular, the promises of God.
You may say you do, but when I present an open promise of God, one of the first things I hear injected into said promise is, "if it is or be God's will", then it the promise is true or then it is the whole council of God.
But there's a problem with adding the will of God to the promises of God, aside from changing the very meaning and context of said promise, that being, it no longer guarantees God will do what He said, which mean, you can no longer have any confident assurance God will do anything for you or answer any of your prayers.
It simply reduces your faith to hoping, wishing, and wondering what God will do.
That is NOT faith, and neither can anyone have any confidence in God or assurance He would be faithful to fulfill said promise or prayer.
The whole thing is nonsensical, and defies simple logic.
You CANNOT have it both ways.
You CANNOT have faith in God or His word, when you don't know what He will do, because you don't know what His will is.
But when you look at the promises, AS IS, you can see the will of God already written.
If I told you, God would save you, if you believe and receive Him as your lord and savior, SO LONG AS IT IS HIS WILL.
Could you have any faith in such a wishy-washy promise like that?
To someone who doesn't know what the will of God is, they can only "hope and pray" it be God's will.
They will not be able to have any faith for their salvation or confident assurance, as you see it.
So that is just one big flaw in that theology alone.
And there are more.
I use scripture as an immovable rock upon which I stand, for it is my solid and sure foundation upon which I build my faith.
I believe it, AS IS, or AS IT IS WRITTEN, and go from there.
If doing that is seen as theologically inaccurate, then to me, I am not the one with the problem.

Nope I am completely informed and have faith in the promises of God that are to us today. In context not all promises are to us today. I think the problem is you are making a logical fallacy in assuming you know what I believe. So you set up strawmen you can easily knock down. Your long post has errors as in

This is completely wrong. The scriptures are speaking about faith dealing with salvation. Has nothing to do verbally saying outloud any old thing you believe God should do for you. God isn't a genie or waiter.

As with God's promises. We have hope and confidence that the unfulfilled promises will come to pass because of the assurance that came from past promises that did indeed come to pass.

As mentioned earlier. Not all promises are directed to the modern reader for example this verse.

Jeremiah 29:11 New International Version (NIV)
11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Sounds nice but who is the you in this scripture? God promised destruction in Jeremiah 42:18. Should we make that personal too?

So you see when you say promises, I am hesitant to respond to what promises does your doctrine hinge on. Because either you dont understand like Romans 10:8 or they are out of context and you are claiming promises directed to if you was a ancient Israelite.

It does sound somewhat funny to hear you say, I'm taking those verses out of context, because it works for me even as I described how it works.
You say, "God isn't a genie or waiter", but His word is, and more.
I will explain that later.
Let's look at those verses again, only I will expound on them some.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Verse 8 explains what word of faith is and how it works.
Verses 9 and 10 are examples of what verse 8 describes or explains word of faith is.
Verses 9 and 10 are indeed talking about salvation, but notice how those verses show just how word of faith works as it is written in verse 8?
Word of faith is a law, and it doesn't just work for salvation.
If I remove the rest of the sentence of each verse, it shows some similarities in each verse.

Rom 10:8 in thy mouth
in thy heart
Rom 10:9 if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
shalt believe in thine heart
Rom 10:10 with the heart man believeth unto
with the mouth confession is made unto

Jesus put it this way.

Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

The above verse is pretty simple and strait forward to understand what is being said.
Does it matter what Jesus was talking about?
Not really, but to keep it in context, Jesus not only was explaining to Peter HOW He caused the fig tree to die, but also how anyone with the faith of God or "whosoever" speaks to whatsoever without doubting in their heart, it will be done for them even as it was done for Jesus.

Again, faith is a law.
Paul called it the law of faith.
It works the same as the law of gravity, and just as consistent.
I told you I would explain about the word of God being our servant, and below gives you examples

Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word [of faith] only, and my servant shall be healed.

Now the centurion is about to explain and compare how he sees Jesus' word of authority and power, to his own.

Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Jesus again used the word of faith when He spoke what He believed in His heart.
What made Jesus marvel at the centurion?
It was that he saw something no one else did.
That being, the word of faith was both sent and subject to Jesus, even as the centurion's servants and soldiers under him were subject to him.
Point being, the word of God is as a servant or soldier to the sender, and it is the word itself that does the work, even as a servant or soldier does the work he/she was sent to do.

Again, we have yet another example of the word of faith, based on the promises of God, compared to a servant.

Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree [or whatsoever], Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

What should obey you, the thing you spoke to or the word you just sent?
Is the object subject to us or the word of faith?
He explains with a parable.

Unworthy Servants
Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

The word of God, spoken in faith, is the one who does the work it was sent and ordered to do.
Who or what created the worlds and all that is in it?

Heb 11:3 We understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, through faith, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

I changed the order around a little for clarity sake.
What the above verse is saying is that the world were made BY the word of God itself.
Are we not allowed to speak God's word boldly, in faith.
Are we not suppose to remind God, what He said.
Are we not suppose to thank, praise, and worship Him, believing He is faithful who promised and that He will not only watch over and hasten to perform His word, through and by His word?
And should we not believe that His word should not return to us void, but accomplish that which we please, and prosper in the thing whereto WE SENT IT?
After all, in Psa 103:20 even his angels, excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word [OR TO THOSE WHO SPEAK FORTH, OR GIVE VOICE TO, HIS WORD].
It is all about the word of God, which is a seed or offspring of God, doing what we send it to do, knowing it will accomplish what it was sent to do.
Just like the servant in the parable.

All I can say is this.. I love worshipping the Lord with many of their songs... Jenn Johnson is very anointed and led by the Spirit when she leads worship. I feel God's presence so many times when she leads. Her heart of wanting the Lord to appear and not herself is the key.

And faith is not actually the confident assurance but the very thing you are believing for.
The confidence is part of the believing, NOT the faith itself.
Hebrews 11:1 in the KJV explains it best.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Jesus put it this was.

Mar 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?
Mar 4:22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
Mar 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
Mar 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Luk 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

I once got healed from the flu after having it for 2 and 1/2 days, when I prayed for an hour and a half, using the latter portion of that promise, by rejecting the symptoms and its right to exist in my body.
Notice the person has something that hasn't been given yet.
Now what do you suppose that is?
How can you have something, BEFORE it is given.
And how can you not have something BEFORE it is taken from you?
Even that which the person THINKS he has?
That is what faith is.
It is the very thing you envision.
If it is saying the sinner's prayer to get saved, then that is what your faith is.
Your confidence or believing rests in God to do what He said or promised to do in His word.

Again, James uses the body as a symbol of what faith is.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James compare faith to the body, and the works of faith to a spirit of the body.
Again, faith is a noun, and a noun is a person, place, thing, event or situation.
Like the body.
Believing is a verb, which as you know, is an action word.
Like the works one MUST do for their faith to be alive.
Which goes back to Romans 10:8.
In order for faith to work, it MUST be accompanied by a corresponding work to what you are believing for.
Like speaking what you believe in your heart, as Paul said in Romans, concerning words of faith.
They all tie together, saying basically the same thing, over and over again.

I always believe if you can feel the anointing within a song it has to be of God. The enemy cannot duplicate that anointed feeling and you always know the difference.

The main thing I have seen with the likes of Hillsong music is treating the Holy Spirit as something to draw power from like a force.

Like 'give me, give me, give me'


Rather than thankyou for what you have given.

There are some Hillsongs that do have this thankfulness .. but not enough

Bethel is into signs and wonders. Once you realized this, you can understand the lyrics of their songs much better.

You are not proving your doctrine. These scriptures are related to salvation not just any old thing that prosperity or word faith doctrines teach. You are trying to squeeze a dollar to get 5 dollars. This is simple.

This is nice but I think you are confused.

If you by faith say it and believe it that you need a pink Cadillac. Will you get one? What happens when you believe and speak for healing and the healing doesn't come?

There is a large connection to the spiritual meaning of those scriptures and the will of God. Also the literary understanding is always important. When Jesus says he is the door, do you believe Jesus is a literal door? Do you believe the mountain or tree was to mean a literal mountain or tree? Or does the context explain what the mountain or tree was?


A glimpse at God's will as Paul was dealing with some prosperity teachers in his day.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 New International Version (NIV)
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

I will conclude this because I am curious to what you believe involves word faith? I have nothing against reminding God of his promises as long as they relate to me. The Word did create the universe. But me speaking God's word to create universes isnt going to happen.

God doesn't promise us anything we ask. But in context it has to be within the character of God and the will.

My question is. What do you in your life speak to God to give you or do for you? Give some examples. Each example needs a scripture to justify your asking.

I don't know how you can say I'm not proving anything when I gave MANY scripture verses, each backing up the other, saying the same thing a different way.
You have yet to prove me wrong.
Simply claiming Romans 10 is about salvation, means NOTHING.
Jesus said to two people, "according to your faith be it done unto you."
Does that mean, what Jesus said, only applied to those two men, in their particular situation?
I think it NOT.
You need to start connecting things together, by first examining HOW faith works.
You still don't know, even though I told you repeatedly.
How do I know this?
Because you already said what you do.
You HOPE AND PRAY, which is to say, you pray in hope, hoping God will do as you asked.
That my friend is NOT faith, not faith at all, and God will not answer such prayers.
Look at each example and explanation in the bible concerning faith, and you should see, faith in God and His word, ONLY works when a corresponding work of some sort is done in conjunction to what you believe in your heart.
Verbally speaking, what you believe in your heart, would be one of said works.
As James says, without a corresponding work, your faith is dead and without effect.
Words of faith MUST be spoken, while acts of faith MUST be acted on, for faith to work, be alive, and effective.
No action of any kind, but simply believing, more like hoping, God will do what you are believing for, I can guarantee you this much, NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING will happen, except maybe the situation will get worse.
Can you give me just one example of either you or someone in your church, who has done something in faith, and saw God move in that situation they prayed for, aside from salvation?

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The bible says there is ONLY ONE Lord, Spirit, and FAITH.
If faith is required for salvation, and the only way to please God is through faith, then this same said faith MUST work the same way for good health, deliverance, protection, healing, words of faith, answered prayers, words and acts of faith, and the like.
I'm just connecting the dots.
So even thought the verses in Romans 10:9-10 are clearly talking about salvation, as I said also, verse 8 expounding on the righteousness written in verse 6.
I think you are loosing sight of what verse 8 is saying, centering solely on 9 and 10.
The righteousness of God, which is of faith, written in verse 6, is in your HEART AND MOUTH, which again, IS the word of faith Paul preached about.
Again, the subject in verse 8 is about the word of faith, which Paul says is near you, even in your mouth and heart.
The verses are still about the righteousness of God through faith or the law of faith, and said faith CANNOT work EXCEPT you speak with your mouth what you believe in your heart, as described in 9 and 10.
Which is exactly how the faith written in verse 8 works.

Wolf in sheep’s clothing. What has the fruit of CCM been...a church that is triumphing, evangelizing the culture, and assisting in the creation of disciples? Or the opposite?

One of the things I am very thankful for is that the church I belong to doesn’t have to deal with such issues. Our music is ancient Byzantine chant, our hymnal is the Psalms, and neither of these things are subject to being changed based on the personal tastes or preferences of parishoners.

From Cain and Able to Moses and on through the New Testament God has always been very specific about the worship he finds pleasing.