Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)

Hello Nehemiah!

I would add, that it is not just the 6th and 7th seals, but all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Jesus is the One opening the seals. The 1st seal rider on the white horse which represents the revealing of the antichrist, the 2nd seal rider on the red horse which takes peach from the earth so that men kill each other, the 3rd seal rider on the black horse which represents world-wide famine, all are apart of God's wrath. The 4th seal which is a culmination of the previous seals, results in a fourth of the earths population being killed, which based on our current population would be over 1.7 billion fatalities and that during the first 3 1/2 years. We cannot exclude any of the seals from God's wrath.

The reason that many interpret the 6th and 7th seals as being where God's wrath begins, is because of that statement at the opening of the 6th seal which says "For the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it!" When people read this, they think that God's wrath only follows that statement. However, the words "has come" is in the "aorist indicative active" tense, which includes the whole wrath of God, which includes the events of wrath and resulting fatalities caused by seals 1 thru 5 as well as all of the wrath that follows the announcement.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, all make up the whole wrath of God, as well as all that the two witnesses will evoke.

Greetings azamzimtoti!

Jesus described the great tribulation as a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. That said, the destruction of the temple and siege of Jerusalem does not fit that criteria. As an example, the destruction of the temple greatly pales in comparison to the flooding of the earth. Jesus went on to say that if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prescribed time, that no one on the entire earth would be left alive. It is the seals, trumpets, bowl judgments and the plagues which the two witnesses will bring during the time of God's wrath, which make up the tribulation/great tribulation, which is still future.

In addition, John wrote the book of Revelation on the Isle of Patmos which he was exiled to because of his faith. This took place during the reign of emperor Domitian who ruled from 81 thru 96 AD. Therefore, the book of Revelation would have been written well after the destruction of the temple and the siege of Jerusalem. John is speaking about a future tribulation which will be nothing like the world has ever seen.

Hello Runningman!

There is going to be a gathering of the church prior to God's wrath, which is initiated by the first seal being opened. Matt.24:31 is describing that gathering of the great tribulation saints (Rev.7:9-17) who make it alive through the time of God's wrath until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. These will still be in their mortal bodies and along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. Matt.24:31 is not the gathering of the church, which will have been gathered several years earlier prior to God's wrath which begins with the opening of the first seal.

By making Matt.24:31 the gathering of the church, you will have put the church through the entire wrath of God which we are not appointed to suffer. The underlying principle is that Christ already satisfied God's wrath for the believer. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon us and therefore we cannot and will not go through His wrath.

Everything that God does is a legal process. Since Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of everyone who believes in Him, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ.

You are correct here in that, the identity of the two witnesses is not disclosed. However, it is plausible that the two witness could be Enoch and Elijah, both of whom never physically died.

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Oh, but scripture does say that the church will be in heaven during the tribulation.

"Hallelujah!

For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.

For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”
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In the scripture above, the bride which is another moniker representing the church, is seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb. She is given fine linen, white and clean to wear. Then following in v. 14, we see the armies of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that the bride will have been given at the wedding feast and will be following the Lord out of heaven to the earth. Consequently, in order for the bride/church to follow the Lord out of heaven, she would already have to be in heaven.

"They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” - Rev.17:14

The scripture above also supports the truth that the church (called, chosen and faithful followers) will be coming out of heaven and returning to the earth with the Lord to conquer the beast and the kings of the earth.

This is simply a process of elimination.

God's wrath poured out on Christ = wrath of God no longer rests upon believers

Since God's wrath has been satisfied for the believer, then we cannot and will not go through the time of God's wrath and therefore the Lord's promise to gather us must take place prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.

If you will notice, in chapters 1 thru 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Within those same chapters you never see the word "hagios" translated as "saints." Then, after the end of chapter 3, the word church is never used again and never appears within the narrative of God's wrath. The word used after the end of chapter 3 is hagios/saint, which is referring to the great tribulation saints who will be those who will put their trust in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. The changing of these two words is no coincidence, but is a God given clue.

As previously stated, the church cannot and will not go through God's wrath because Jesus already satisfied it on behalf of every believer. It would not be in God's nature to punish the righteous with the wicked, which is what would happen if the church were to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.

Speaking of this unprecedented time of God's wrath, not understanding the severity and magnitude of it. And not understanding who God's wrath is reserved for, are some of the main reasons that people claim that the Lord is going to first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her after. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. This is made clear in that God first removed Lot, his wife and daughters from the area before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. Since God's wrath will come upon the entire earth, then the Lord is going to gather His church prior to the beginning of that wrath, which is initiated at the opening of the first seal.

The way I see it is that because of the words of Christ in the Olivet Discourse, the first five seals were opened in the first century and continued to manifest those things throughout history. Jesus called them "the beginning of sorrows".

FIRST SEAL: FALSE CHRISTS
For many shall come in my name, saying,I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Mt 24:5)
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (Rev 6:2)

SECOND SEAL: WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:... (Mt 24:6,7a)
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. (Rev 6:4)

THIRD SEAL: FAMINES
...and there shall be famines... (Mt 24:7b)
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (Rev 6:5,6)
[Note: a penny today means absolutely nothing. However, it was a day's wage (Greek denarius = small sliver coin worth 53 grams) at that time, so perhaps about $150 in terms of todays wages. And you would be spending $100-200 for less than quart of grain (Greek choenix = a dry measure of less than a quart). During a famine food is extremely expensive].

FOURTH SEAL: DEATH AND HADES*
...and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. (Mt 24:7b, 8)
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (Rev 6:8)
[Note: *Death and Hades = deaths due to wars, famines, as well as pestilences and earthquakes, with the majority being unsaved and going to Hades]

FIFTH SEAL: CHRISTIAN MARTYRS
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (Mt 24:9)
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (Rev 6:9)

So the only judgments remaining are those of the 6th and 7th seals.

Hello Adstar!

Yes, you are correct in that, Jesus said that we who believe in Him would have trials and tribulation. However, God's coming wrath is much different than the trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. God's wrath will be upon all the inhabitants of the earth. Everything that takes place during that time period is apart of God's wrath, including the beasts reign. I would remind you that God used Nebuchadnezzar to punish His people Israel. During the tribulation, God is going to be using the antichrist and his reign, his mark and image, to force the inhabitants to make a decision for Christ or the antichrist. At the same time God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be taking place.

As I said, Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowls. This would mean that He is responsible for the fatalities. The seals have not yet begun. If they had, we would have seen the revealing of the antichrist as the first seal rider on the white horse. The first seal represents the coming antichrist, not many false Christs. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be unprecedented and are meant to get everyone's attention.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up God's wrath and should not be separated.

All these events of wrath are going to take place in a short period of time, namely that last seven years. I see the beginning of sorrows as the beginning of the birth pains, which will get closer together and become more intense. The coming seals, trumpets and bowl will be unprecedented events and should not be applied to previous wars, but to events that are going to happen just preceding the Lord's return to the earth. In addition, the Lord said that these events would take place in the last generation and therefore could not be spread across 2000 years.

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

That generation-- the one where the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place-- will not pass away until they are fulfilled.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are yet future events.

Also, you have the following:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

If the bowl judgments are last completing God's wrath, then other wrath will have to come before them, which would be the seals and the trumpets. These events are not mean to be spread across a 200 year period, but in close proximity to one another. That said, if the seals began back in the first century, no one would have even noticed them. They were just past historic events. However, these that are coming and taking place one after another in a short period of time, will have the entire worlds attention.

You may call it a metaphor but as 'a thousand years' is listed 6 times in Rev 20 and is dealing with specifics, I'd rather not take it metaphorically.

Well if you want to believe all prophecies were wrapped up by 70AD, be my guest but I'm not going there.

Lifelong beliefs are almost impossible to change. I get that. Christ said that He would return in His presence to THAT VERY SAME GENERATION to resurrect the righteous out of Hades, to exact judgment on the wicked of His day - those who participated in His death, and to gather the living believers into His spiritual kingdom. He said His Kingdom was at hand. He said when armies surrounded Jerusalem to "look up, your redemption draws near." He told the wicked Jewish religious leaders of His day that His wrath would come upon them and their children. He made no mention of their ancestors 100 generations later.

All of this was accomplished!! Praise the Lord.

In Matthew 24 no one is being gathered at all under any circumstances until the second return of Christ, which occurs after the great tribulation. There's no hint that anyone will get scooped up and spared from the great tribulation until it is concluded at the moment of or directly after the second return of Christ. I am saying the church will go through the great tribulation based off of what the Bible says.

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." Matthew 24:21-22

The great tribulation will wipe out almost everyone, including most Christians. The "elect" are undoubtedly Christians. There will be no shortage of Christians to martyr during the tribulation, See Revelation 13 and Revelation 17 for supplemental reading.

The great tribulation is not God's wrath, the great tribulation occurs when the Restrainer (presumably either the church or the Holy Spirit) is removed and allows the anti-Christ to be revealed - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7. The great tribulation is the result of Satan persecuting the world, especially the church, unchecked and unchallenged.

God's wrath will occur at the second return of Christ, Matthew 24:38-39. The return of Christ will be like the great flood in the days of Noah, it will save whatever Christians are left and destroy everyone else. The great flood was God's wrath and Christ's return is like the great flood- Christ's return = God's wrath.

So in conclusion the church will be spared from God's wrath, but not the great tribulation because the tribulation isn't God's wrath. God's wrath will fall onto the unrighteous at the second return of Christ and spare everyone else.

It means nothing to disagree without a scriptural reason to back it up. The trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, are indeed different from God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowls, which is what believers are not appointed to suffer. Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon us. It is the lack of understanding of these two reasons why people believe and teach that the church is going to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. They come in with only partial scriptural information.

The reason that you claim the above, is because you don't fully understand that since Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then we cannot and will not be exposed to it. It's as simple as that. In the same way, scripture says, "the reward for sin is death." Jesus met that requirement and since the payment has been satisfied, then death no longer has any power over believers. It's just as Jesus said, "though they die, yet shall they live."

Furthermore, there is a very big hint that believers are going to be caught up, because that's a promise from the Lord, that He would descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God where the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So, there is the scripture. Yours and others problem, is believing that the Lord is going gather the church after His wrath. However, and thank God, He does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since His wrath will be coming upon the whole entire earth with no place to hide, then He will gather the church prior to said wrath.

No believer in Christ will be on the earth to suffer the same punishment as the wicked. That's not God's nature. The great tribulation is not Satan persecuting the world. It is God's time of punishment and Satan and the beast are apart of it. It's God's wrath, not Satan's. Those seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are God's wrath and will be carried out through that entire seven years.

Just some advice, don't pigeonhole the word "elect." For it is used of both Israel and Gentiles who believe in Christ.

You better go back and read Matt.24 again, because those events of wrath begin before the Lord's return to the earth. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will begin several years prior to Christ's return to the earth to end the age.

You fell for the lie! There is no Satan's wrath. There is only God's wrath. It just so happens that Satan, the beast and the false prophet are included.

As I said, when we became believers we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. And because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, God's wrath no longer rests upon us. Therefore, we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

I challenge you to find the church mentioned anywhere after chapter 4. You won't find it and there's a reason for that. The next time the word church is used is in Rev.22:16 in the epilog.

when Jesus has us looking/searching to add to what He has already taught us, we must have an open-mind,
discerning and receptive to those whom He has as teachers of what we are yet to learn...

when there is so much 'confusion' about a Biblical concept, sometimes it is just best if we Love and Leave...

I undersrand why you think what you do, I think we agree some stuff and disagree on certain things. This topic is actually one of those divisive ones that people generally fall into one of two camps about. I don't think it really effects salvation to misinterpret what it says as long as we're believing in Christ to save us and we're watching and waiting.

It just means that some people will be surprised when certain events don't happen the way they thought the would.

I'm genuinely concerned it might cause a large scale falling away sort of event that is prophesied as a precursor to the rise of the anti-Christ. Imagine expecting to be swept away in a rapture event that doesn't happen at the time people expect it to. I wonder how many peoples' faith would hold up.

So final question: given the below verses, how else do you think the "rebellion" will occur? Note: some versions refer to the rebellion as the falling away or apostasy.

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. " 2Thessalonians 2:1-4

No you don't, I have changed a few views over time.
No He didn't. 'This generation' most likely refers to the fact that all the events mentioned will happen in one generation or the generation existing at the commencement of the events.
No He didn't, His last words about the coming Kingdom were...
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Act 1:6-7)
No He didn't, this is what He said, ...Luke 21:20-22 (KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Yes, He did, Lev 26:33, Deut 29:22-23, but in His Word He also promised a regathering (which btw happened after 70AD) Jer 23:7-8, or ...

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Isa 11:11-12)

Or Ezek 37 (whole chapter).
None was accomplished- Maranatha!

Then you led them astray.

Go back to Mat 23; 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

He spoke of their very generation.

See the below:

1. Matthew 3:2
   and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”
2. Matthew 4:17
   From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
3. Matthew 10:7
   And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
4. Mark 1:15
   and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

How many times does it need to say it for you to understand that the kingdom was at hand in 30-33 AD? He's telling them to repent NOW because the Kingdom was at hand.

The next time Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies was in 66-70 AD. Those were the days of vengeance. When the entire wicked population that refused to accept their Messiah and had Him brutally killed were all wiped out within that same generation, why do you keep looking for a distant generation?

Keep reading. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

These things, all of these things.

Wrong. But it would take too long here to straighten this out.

Revelation 12:

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The story of Abraham and Isaac was a type of God's future sacrifice of His Son. I think most Christians would agree. We have an even stronger parallel between Moses and Christ.

While the Jews were slaves in Egypt for 400 years they waited for a deliverer, a type of Messiah. They waited for someone who would set them free from their enslavement at the hands of the Egyptians. Moses led them out of Egypt and towards the Promised Land but because of their sin and disobedience and lack of faith, they wandered for 40 years. In the end, none of them were allowed to enter the Promised Land. Only the faithful and those who did not partake in the sin of their fathers were allowed to enter the Promised Land filled with milk and honey, call it, heaven on earth. The rest died, lost in the desert.

Fast forward to the days of Christ. They were again waiting for a deliverer, the Messiah to free them from Rome. They were looking for a military leader but this wasn't the kind of bondage Christ came to free them from. Instead Christ came to free them spiritually from Satan's clutches. After the Cross, the nation of Israel again wandered this time spiritually for 40 years until 70 AD when they were all destroyed. The righteous were gathered together into the Kingdom of God. Christ set the captives in Hades free, they went first to heaven. Those alive and remaining entered the same spiritual kingdom although they were still mortals on earth. This kingdom is our "Promised Land."

My view is affirmed in the Book of John. We don't go to Hades anymore. This was to happen during THAT GENERATION:

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Peter echoes this in Acts 3. Moses makes the same comparison that I do:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

And thus they were in 70 AD. It was their days by which all the prophets spoke.

To all futurists,

Can anyone give me one verse that places a long (2000+ year) between the NT prophesies and their fulfillment, other than Rev 20?? I can provide many passages that speak to the immanency of these prophesies.