Texas televangelist Kenneth Copeland came under fire this...

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ToastAndTea

ToastAndTea

Well-known member
#101
Jul 31, 2018
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#101
biker said:
You will never hear me disagreeing with everything you just said. I have no doubts many, besides Copeland, can be added to your viewpoint. I rather pray for the man. He does quite a bit to tear his own self down without my help. I don't agree with his doctrine nor his idealism. But even as I am being judged by God, and my Discernment warns me of him, I still believe in his beginning he was once anointed. And God is clear to not touch His anointed.
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I think we are called to prayerfully, soberly and earnestly contend for truth and to defend it from error. Copeland is known to be in error through these videos. So, from my own perspective, I don't attack the man, I attack what he stands for because it is out of sync with the Word of God.
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#102
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#102
Well, here you have it, folks.

Word of Faith preacher Kenneth Copeland claims that he has destroyed Covid19.

This is why I cannot take charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith people seriously.

These groups co-mingle, so please don't take me to task for generalizing.

And, if you do take me to task, do you agree that Kenneth Copeland is a false teacher? Because, from my experience, most from this subculture will not condemn the teachings of people like him.

 
B

biker

Banned
#103
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
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#103
Copeland is not Pentecostal. according to his bio his parents were Southern Baptist. Then he went to and later joined Oral Roberts who are Methodist. So his roots are Baptist and Methodist which he turned into Charismatic. Somewhere down the line, he learned his charismatic ways from the Baptist and Methodists, not the Pentecostals.
 
B

biker

Banned
#104
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
464
83
#104
ToastAndTea said:
I think we are called to prayerfully, soberly and earnestly contend for truth and to defend it from error. Copeland is known to be in error through these videos. So, from my own perspective, I don't attack the man, I attack what he stands for because it is out of sync with the Word of God.
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Agreed.
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#105
Aug 12, 2019
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#105
biker said:
Copeland is not Pentecostal. according to his bio his parents were Southern Baptist. Then he went to and later joined Oral Roberts who are Methodist. So his roots are Baptist and Methodist which he turned into Charismatic. Somewhere down the line, he learned his charismatic ways from the Baptist and Methodists, not the Pentecostals.
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He speaks in tongues. To claim he learned that from Baptists is not credible.

Kenneth Hagin is the source of his teaching. And, Hagin was an Assembly of God minister.

Kenneth Copeland attended Oral Roberts University. I don't think any self-respecting Baptist would be in alignment with Oral Roberts.

I find it amusing that charismatics/Pentecostals/Word of Faith deny their common roots and traits. All you have to do is research these guys, and you will see that Pentecostal, charismatic, and Word of Faith are rolled into one.

AND the individuals in here will deny their connection, yet display the characteristics of the other groups shortly thereafter. You aren't fooling me :)
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#106
Aug 12, 2019
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#106
biker said:
Copeland is not Pentecostal. according to his bio his parents were Southern Baptist. Then he went to and later joined Oral Roberts who are Methodist. So his roots are Baptist and Methodist which he turned into Charismatic. Somewhere down the line, he learned his charismatic ways from the Baptist and Methodists, not the Pentecostals.
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Oral Roberts was not Methodist ONLY. He was also ordained by Pentecostal Holiness.

Your guys' attempt to wiggle out of the association is amusing.

Here's a summary of Oral Roberts in Wikipedia:


Granville Oral Roberts (January 24, 1918 – December 15, 2009[1][2]) was a Choctaw American Charismatic Christian televangelist, ordained in both the Pentecostal Holiness and United Methodist churches. He is considered the godfather of the charismatic movement and was one of the most recognized preachers worldwide at the height of his fame.[3] He founded the Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association and Oral Roberts University.

As one of the most well-known and controversial American religious leaders of the 20th century, his preaching emphasized seed-faith.[4] His ministries reached millions of followers worldwide spanning a period of over six decades.[5] His healing ministry and bringing American Pentecostalism into the mainstream had the most impact,[6] but he also pioneered televangelism and laid the foundations of the prosperity gospel[5] and abundant life teachings.[7] The breadth and style of his ministry, including his widely publicized funding appeals, made him a consistent subject of contention among critics and supporters.[5]

Kenneth Copeland attended Oral Roberts University and served as Roberts' pilot or chauffeur...I don't remember which.
 
B

biker

Banned
#107
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
464
83
#107
UnitedWithChrist said:
He speaks in tongues. To claim he learned that from Baptists is not credible.

Kenneth Hagin is the source of his teaching. And, Hagin was an Assembly of God minister.

Kenneth Copeland attended Oral Roberts University. I don't think any self-respecting Baptist would be in alignment with Oral Roberts.

I find it amusing that charismatics/Pentecostals/Word of Faith deny their common roots and traits. All you have to do is research these guys, and you will see that Pentecostal, charismatic, and Word of Faith are rolled into one.

AND the individuals in here will deny their connection, yet display the characteristics of the other groups shortly thereafter. You aren't fooling me :)
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There are over 30 Branches to the Baptist Organization. Do all believe the same? I would guess not since there is more than one, which indicates disagreement. Methodist have several Branches. Wesleyan has a few Branches. Pentecostals has several Branches.

How are you able to LUMP a small sect as to be the sole representation of the entire whole?
 
B

biker

Banned
#108
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
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83
#108
if Southern Baptist did something horrific, should I blame black shell Baptist for it as well?
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#109
May 29, 2013
9,160
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#109
Jackson123 said:
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If someone moves their fingers a certain way and other people say they are making a demonic sign, generally, I roll my eyes at that. People who talk with their hands may move them all different kinds of ways. Unless it is something extremely overt and something the person is likely to know about, it's not worth mentioning. I don't mind exposing someone's teaching and practices.

I saw a website once where this guy was accusing Michael W. Smith of making demonic signs because the hair on his forehead was combed with three strands (hard to explain) for an album cover, and that number or shape was supposed to represent something demonic to some group. He was standing on a chair with his arms out sideways in another one, and that was supposed to represent 'runing' making shapes from the Norse runes, and each shape was supposed to represent the letter of some word the commentator pointed out.

They say in Greece, making an 'okay' sign with your fingers means 'gay'. In other countries, it means money. There are a lot of symbols you can make with your hands, inadvertently, that mean something bad to someone.
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#110
May 29, 2013
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#110
UnitedWithChrist said:
Kenneth Hagin is the source of his teaching. And, Hagin was an Assembly of God minister.

Kenneth Copeland attended Oral Roberts University. I don't think any self-respecting Baptist would be in alignment with Oral Roberts.

I find it amusing that charismatics/Pentecostals/Word of Faith deny their common roots and traits. All you have to do is research these guys, and you will see that Pentecostal, charismatic, and Word of Faith are rolled into one.
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I noticed some references to Reformed documents in your signature. The PC USA allows ministers to perform same-sex so-called 'weddings.' Does that mean you are in favor of falsely so-called 'gay marriage'? Westboro Baptist are Calvinists, too, and I noticed a Baptist confession listed in your sig. Does that mean you agree with Westboro Baptist's approach of protesting funerals?

Hagin was an Assemblies of God ordained preacher for a while, maybe in the 1950's. I don't know his whole life history. I think his soteriology is different from a typical A/G soteriology, and he was influenced a lot by Kenyon. His theology is also not typical of A/G preachers in a number of other areas. He went off and started his own thing with Rhema.

If you go to an A/G church and tell the pastor you have a headache, he might pray for you. If you go to a WOF church, you might get rebuked for a 'negative' confession. Your typical Pentecostal would find this annoying, at least. There are individuals who are influenced by that, but it isn't typical.

When I talk about WOF theology being different from Pentecostal theology, I am not talking about things that both movements hold to that are supported by scripture-- for example the idea that there is a relationship between faith and healing. WOF does have some beliefs in common with Pentecostals. But WOFers believe in a number of things that are not typical of Pentecostals. I say typical because an individual could go to a Pentecostal church and believe any number of things, just like someone who believes in 'gay marriage' could walk into your assembly, too.

WOFers hold to a perspective that involves not confessing reality that was influenced by Kenyon. That involved into rebuking people for describing reality. Hagin also attributed 'bad stuff', sickness, calamities, etc. to the Devil to an extreme that made no sense at all. Then there are those weird one-off doctrines and teachings, teaching against praying, 'if it be thy will', teaching that Jesus died spiritually, and a number of unseemly ideas about wealth and fundraising that are not typical of the Pentecostal denominations. An individual Pentecostal or Pentecostal preacher could have some WOF ideas or emphases. There is a mix of feelings about how much to associate with WOFers and it depends on the individual teacher.

As far as the gay marriage thing goes, I think there is one independent pro-arsenokoites church where the leaders have put the name 'Pentecostal' in the title, and one preacher of a church that seemed to have a seeker-sensitive style started promoting the gay marriage thing a month or two ago, and the district was moving quickly to take care of the problem. I am not sure if he is out yet or if it is still in progress and whether the congregation will go with him. I am not in the A/G denomination, but I read about this.
 
B

biker

Banned
#111
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
464
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#111
presidente said:
I noticed some references to Reformed documents in your signature. The PC USA allows ministers to perform same-sex so-called 'weddings.' Does that mean you are in favor of falsely so-called 'gay marriage'? Westboro Baptist are Calvinists, too, and I noticed a Baptist confession listed in your sig. Does that mean you agree with Westboro Baptist's approach of protesting funerals?

Hagin was an Assemblies of God ordained preacher for a while, maybe in the 1950's. I don't know his whole life history. I think his soteriology is different from a typical A/G soteriology, and he was influenced a lot by Kenyon. His theology is also not typical of A/G preachers in a number of other areas. He went off and started his own thing with Rhema.

If you go to an A/G church and tell the pastor you have a headache, he might pray for you. If you go to a WOF church, you might get rebuked for a 'negative' confession. Your typical Pentecostal would find this annoying, at least. There are individuals who are influenced by that, but it isn't typical.

When I talk about WOF theology being different from Pentecostal theology, I am not talking about things that both movements hold to that are supported by scripture-- for example the idea that there is a relationship between faith and healing. WOF does have some beliefs in common with Pentecostals. But WOFers believe in a number of things that are not typical of Pentecostals. I say typical because an individual could go to a Pentecostal church and believe any number of things, just like someone who believes in 'gay marriage' could walk into your assembly, too.

WOFers hold to a perspective that involves not confessing reality that was influenced by Kenyon. That involved into rebuking people for describing reality. Hagin also attributed 'bad stuff', sickness, calamities, etc. to the Devil to an extreme that made no sense at all. Then there are those weird one-off doctrines and teachings, teaching against praying, 'if it be thy will', teaching that Jesus died spiritually, and a number of unseemly ideas about wealth and fundraising that are not typical of the Pentecostal denominations. An individual Pentecostal or Pentecostal preacher could have some WOF ideas or emphases. There is a mix of feelings about how much to associate with WOFers and it depends on the individual teacher.

As far as the gay marriage thing goes, I think there is one independent pro-arsenokoites church where the leaders have put the name 'Pentecostal' in the title, and one preacher of a church that seemed to have a seeker-sensitive style started promoting the gay marriage thing a month or two ago, and the district was moving quickly to take care of the problem. I am not sure if he is out yet or if it is still in progress and whether the congregation will go with him. I am not in the A/G denomination, but I read about this.
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From my understanding, "only" the Methodist, Catholics, and some Baptist are allowing same sex ministers/marriage. Since this is directed mostly at Pentecostals, there is not a single branch who condones such tripe that I am aware of.
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

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#112
Aug 12, 2019
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#112
Here's a few more videos demonstrating some of the problems with the charismatic movement.

First one is Kenneth Copeland's alleged destruction of the Corona virus. Second one is a great show by John Sampson and Steven Bancarz concerning the many problems with the charismatic movement. John used to work for Copeland, and Steven was brought up as a Pentecostal. He got involved in New Age teaching as a young adult, but was then converted by God to Christianity. He has visited charismatic churches since becoming a believer, and recognizes some of the same evil spirits that are involved in charismatic teachings.

Particularly, he plays a few clips by Bob Jones, who is the father of the charismatic movement. Bob Jones was a major figure in the life of Kenneth Copeland, as well as other charismatics. Listen to his words yourself and determine if he is a sound believer. I think not.

With regards to charismatics, they have repeatedly shown bad judgement in terms of doctrine. Besides their own doctrinal issues, charismatics have called men like William Branham "God's general". William Branham was a oneness Pentecostal who claimed to be a prophet. Well, he missed the boat with that claim, because he was one of the endorsers of Jim Jones' ministry.

The fact that significant charismatics laud William Branham is telling, because, in essence, they are approving the teachings of a heretic who denies the Trinity, and who claimed all kinds of weird experiences.

Jim Jones is the cult leader who lead about 900 people to their deaths.

You guys might as well forget about convincing me that charismatics are worthy of serious consideration. I have seen way too much to fall for that. And, the video with John Sampson and Steven Bancarz will give you some of the reasons why the movement is discredited by all sound Christians.

Like Steven says, 50 percent of the church thinks that recent charismatic teaches are Satanic, 25 percent think it's of the flesh, and the other 25 percent believes it.

By the way, Steven believes that the miraculous sign gifts are still in existence today, but he does not support the charismatic movement as a whole.

One notable remark was that this skyscraper of charismatic teaching is built on a dime-size piece of real estate.


 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#113
Jul 2, 2011
21,412
6,698
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#113
Charismatic is simply a word, like Baptist, Methodist, Roman Catholic and so many more.

Myself, I cannot in all conscienc affiliate myself with any of these, however I am connected to all who believe Jesus-Yeshua, therefore it is a waste of time to attack any particular denomination here in the BDF

We are not going to the hereafter with a badge stating our affiliation with a denomination in this age. We will be there according to our faith in Jesus-Yeshua.

Do not condeman anyone who is just as deceived as you aare in being affiliated with any denomination of this age for we will all be called out of Her and Her Daughters in due time.

Discuss the Bible, not what others say about it but what you are following in you heart, soul and mind....this is a good manner of edifying and fellowshipping with the family in Jesus-Yeshua.
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#114
Aug 12, 2019
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#114
presidente said:
I noticed some references to Reformed documents in your signature. The PC USA allows ministers to perform same-sex so-called 'weddings.' Does that mean you are in favor of falsely so-called 'gay marriage'? Westboro Baptist are Calvinists, too, and I noticed a Baptist confession listed in your sig. Does that mean you agree with Westboro Baptist's approach of protesting funerals?

Hagin was an Assemblies of God ordained preacher for a while, maybe in the 1950's. I don't know his whole life history. I think his soteriology is different from a typical A/G soteriology, and he was influenced a lot by Kenyon. His theology is also not typical of A/G preachers in a number of other areas. He went off and started his own thing with Rhema.

If you go to an A/G church and tell the pastor you have a headache, he might pray for you. If you go to a WOF church, you might get rebuked for a 'negative' confession. Your typical Pentecostal would find this annoying, at least. There are individuals who are influenced by that, but it isn't typical.

When I talk about WOF theology being different from Pentecostal theology, I am not talking about things that both movements hold to that are supported by scripture-- for example the idea that there is a relationship between faith and healing. WOF does have some beliefs in common with Pentecostals. But WOFers believe in a number of things that are not typical of Pentecostals. I say typical because an individual could go to a Pentecostal church and believe any number of things, just like someone who believes in 'gay marriage' could walk into your assembly, too.

WOFers hold to a perspective that involves not confessing reality that was influenced by Kenyon. That involved into rebuking people for describing reality. Hagin also attributed 'bad stuff', sickness, calamities, etc. to the Devil to an extreme that made no sense at all. Then there are those weird one-off doctrines and teachings, teaching against praying, 'if it be thy will', teaching that Jesus died spiritually, and a number of unseemly ideas about wealth and fundraising that are not typical of the Pentecostal denominations. An individual Pentecostal or Pentecostal preacher could have some WOF ideas or emphases. There is a mix of feelings about how much to associate with WOFers and it depends on the individual teacher.

As far as the gay marriage thing goes, I think there is one independent pro-arsenokoites church where the leaders have put the name 'Pentecostal' in the title, and one preacher of a church that seemed to have a seeker-sensitive style started promoting the gay marriage thing a month or two ago, and the district was moving quickly to take care of the problem. I am not sure if he is out yet or if it is still in progress and whether the congregation will go with him. I am not in the A/G denomination, but I read about this.
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It is true that PCUSA has liberal theology. I don't know much about them, though. I think they are similar to the United Methodists, where some congregations are conservative and some are liberal. The Westminster Confession would not be pro-homosexual marriage. It was written in the seventeenth century.

And, homosexuals are welcome to attend at churches I've been a part of, as long as they behave during services. . They can attend as long as they behave and are not disorderly. However, the gay person would need to repent before they would be recognized as a member. If they are displaying public affection in a sexual manner in front of the congregation, they would be removed, of course.

Westboro Baptist was a Southern Baptist Convention church at one time. I think it has become independent now, though. SBC subscribes to a different confession.

By the way, when I use the word "Reformed", I am specifically talking about conservative Reformed churches like OPC, PCA and Reformed Baptists. There are various denominations that are conservative.

I don't even consider liberal churches who have been supporting homosexual marriages or ordinations of either women or homosexuals to be a true church. Women can serve, but not as head pastor. I would not attend such a church, and I would doubt the conversion of the membership. I know that will rankle some people. That's another reason why I wouldn't attend a charismatic church..female ordination.
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

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#115
Aug 12, 2019
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#115
This video basically summarizes my thoughts on a significant portion of charismatic organizations....it is demonic, and reflects the work of a counterfeit spirit.

2 Cor 11:3 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough

2 Cor 11: 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Those who are excessively interested in spiritual manifestations and doing things like leaving their bodies are most assuredly being seduced by these false teachers.

I also respect Costi Hinn, a nephew of Benny Hinn, who is also involved in exposing individuals like Kenneth Copeland and Bill Johnson.

By the way, Steven Bancarz is apparently associated with the charismatic movement in some way so he isn't totally dismissive of them (which is my tendency). He was a New Age teacher before being saved. John Sampson, the other person, was associated with Kenneth Copeland at one point.

Why am I dismissive of charismatics? Their understanding adds nothing to me. I enjoy studying the Bible and relishing in doctrines like union and identity in Christ, and seeing the shadows and types of the OT. I already know I'm joined with Christ, and I don't need to go looking for emotional experiences to validate my faith. I don't need the sense of power or emotional stimulus that apparently charismatic beliefs give some people.

 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#116
May 23, 2012
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#116
hey guy also remember he is 84 years old now . he maybe suffering from something. in the 1980's KC was not off line that has happen over the past 20 years.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#117
#117
CS1 said:
hey guy also remember he is 84 years old now . he maybe suffering from something. in the 1980's KC was not off line that has happen over the past 20 years.
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could be. but it is getting really old with these videos

now we have one over in the news section

so so tired of it as if folks who just have to post these sort of things, seem to believe that it is ok to constantly mock this sort of thing

so much more in this country right now that needs a positive outlook and a whole lotta prayer IMO
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#118
May 29, 2013
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#118
I was watching that last video. The young commentator there started talking about the kingdom of God being in you since birth, as if he were quoting Bob Jones. Did Bob Jones say that? I heard him say the kingdom of God is in you. Jesus said that, translated 'the kingdom of God is in you' or 'the kingdom of God is in your midst.' Did anyone else catch Bob Jones actually saying the 'since birth' part.

I have heard of Bob Jones and I have seen a few clips of him. I actually met him once and saw him praying for someone when I was a young man. He was talking about breath or wind, something like in the video. It seemed a little odd and esoteric to me. My impression of him is it's hard to relate to what he's saying.

But the young man in the video said Jones spoke in a 'mainstream Charismatic church.' What would that be? Bethel? Is that 'mainstream'? If he's from that movement, maybe it seems that way to him. They are influential and growing their own group within the 'signs and wonders' movement.

But I cannot say that I have ever heard anyone mention Bob Jones or William Branham in a Pentecostal church. On forums, I can think of a pastor or two who is familiar with them who has warned about Bob Jones, but I think most people in the Pentecostal movement are unfamiliar with Jones. There are churches others dub 'Branhamite' who think Branham was a special messenger who listen to recordings of his sermons. The man taught some weird doctrine, especially later in his life. Some of the 'prophetic movement', which kind of morphed into the 'signs and wonders movement' mention him sometimes. I know about Branham because someone mentioned "God's Generals" series to me, put together by a young WOF preacher. I checked it out through Interlibrary loan in the early 1990's. Then I read bits and pieces of a book on Branham written as a Baptist seminary thesis and written as a book.

My impression of the movement is there seems to be light use of scripture in it compared to Pentecostal churches which is my background. There is a lot of emphasis on salvation and the cross in Pentecostal churches in my experience.
 
R

Rondonmon

Senior Member
#120
May 13, 2016
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#120
MessageOfTheCross said:
Texas televangelist Kenneth Copeland came under fire this weekend for viral statements defending his lifestyle, including his ownership of three private jets.

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Why do Christians GIVE EAR to the World? This amazes me............carry on.
 
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