Do you still sin?

Scripture is truth, and if we see something in scripture that does not reflect truth it is not the fault of scripture but of our understanding. And even Paul tells us that even though Christ clears him of sin he still sins. Romans 7: 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

However in 2 Peter 1:9 we are told we are near sighted and blind if we accept the forgiveness and power of Christ and do not control our will we do have control of to live as Godly a life as we possibly can.

I know I have not been online often due to my eyes trying to heal but Lafftur unless I am recalling incorrectly you and I have been in this kind of argument with another user that used to be on here didn't we? I won't name names but I remember how he would attack in the very same manner saying how if we sin we are not saved and how it is more than possible to live in perfection if we are filled with the holy spirit even saying he himself did not sin and was perfect and no matter how we tried to reson with this person they simply would refute anything said and retaliate with all manners of scripture used as a weapon instead of how it should be used.

Such is the manner of which such people act it can be said to keep trying to teach people but we also do need to know when to shake the dust off our feet and walk away otherwise all we have is an ongoing war between believers each one believing themselves to be in the right even with pure intentions finding themselves using scripture to simply prove the other person wrong or to attack even I have found myself to do this if I stay in a one sided debate for to long sometimes we have to understand that the deaf cannot hear but the one who knows their hearts can speak to their hearts where they use a different kind of ears.

However as to where I stand on the subject I am saved but far from being a sinner in fact I perhaps am to hard on myself about my sins even though if it were on the other foot and another person was going through this I would see the exact opposite in them even though they themselves don't see it. Some might say seeing yourself as a lowly sinner is being humble but there is a vast difference between being humble and just beating on yourself and if new believers are influenced by the if you sin you are not saved doctrine they will be damaged severely some might even give up hope entirely and this is why I oppose this doctrine to such an extent.

In the time when these kind of believers were quite active in the forum it caused such distress and chaos that there was no longer debates just war threads and scripture was thrown around like a sword cutting everyone down dishonoring what it was meant for and I cannot tell you how many believers I tried to council because of the harshness of this one doctrine so many truly began to fall hard starting to think they really aren't saved seeing themselves in the way the enemy wanted them to see and it infuriated me I could not do anything to reason with people in this war and could not make them see the damage their words were causing on others hearts.

If their is one thing God has taught me well in my time with him it's the power words have, I am someone who can only truly speak and express himself best in the written form and I am a writer at heart and have seen how often we are used on this forum in the things we say by both God and the enemy so I always make it a point to make sure that the way I respond and speak is in the way that we are called to be and that is love because even though I love to debate I cannot bare to see the damage I saw in those hearts on anyone else even if I am being attacked.

To be honest I believe more often than not there is a middle ground in their own way both sides of the debate have valid points it's just not exactly in the way they think. One side says we are perfect and don't sin another says we imperfect and do sin but both sides in my opinion are both right and wrong.
The thing is both sides seem to base their debate on themselves but it was never about us it was always about him about Jesus and his blood. yes we are sinners and do sin as long as we are in the flesh we are prone to falling and stumbling and backsliding and yet no matter how often we do he always is right their lifting us back up looking at us with those kind and loving us telling us to be strong keep moving forwards and look up why is that?

It's because in his eyes we are perfect we are sinless not because of ourselves or because we don't sin heck not even because sometimes we don't take advantage of his grace but because of the blood that marks us because he is perfect and sinless because he is strong and because his love for us is so deep and so rich and so beautiful that even though we are baffled by the way those have only love in them he says to us you haven't even begun to see anything yet.

There is no one side this debate we are both sinners and saints we both have sin and also don't it's just a matter of whose eyes you are seeing through. We can hold to our own beliefs and doctrines so tight that sometimes even if we are presented the truth we are blind to it deaf to it and refuse it.

Ok this is very helpful. I have wondered about this for awhile. Thank you.

I have never read where the bible states that when Jesus first ascended that He came back the same day. I have not read either what Jesus actually did in heaven when He first ascended either. All that I have read is that Jesus ascended to the Father and not that He made a blood atonement on the altar in heaven. I'm not saying this didn't happen only that I have never read scripture that specifically states that the day that Jesus ascended to heaven He made a blood atonement on an altar and later that same day returned to earth. Apparently, I'm not getting the understanding either.

Hello Laffur!

You are correct, believers have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and have been reconciled to God, yet we still have our sinful nature and we still sin. John wrote about this very thing saying:

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

John wrote the above to believers in Christ, not unbelievers. If we no longer sin then the above would make no sense. In fact, it states that if anyone says that he has no sin the truth is not in them. But if we confess our sins the Lord is faithful and just to forgive us. Suffice to say, if you claim to not have sin, then there would be no need to confess. Not only is this true, but scripture states that Christ died for us while we were yet sinners.

A better description of our status would be that we are covered sinners. Not meaning those who deliberately/willfully live according to the sinful nature, but those who are walking in Christ and who commit sins out of weakness. To say that we have no sin is false.

The scriptures above are talking about those who commit willful deliberate sin, i.e. living according to the sinful nature. It doesn't mean that we don't sin as believers.

By the way, backsliding is sin.

Greetings Kolistus!

"If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts."

In the scripture above, John is writing to believers about sins that we commit in weakness, because we still have our sinful natures. As the scriptures says, "if we claim that we have no sin we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth." I'm sure that I don't have to convince anyone that we still sin, whether in deed or in thought.

"This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. 6So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth. 7But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

The scripture above, is speaking about sinning because we are sinning by deliberately and willfully walking according to the sinful nature, i.e. living in spiritual darkness.

Eve sinned before the fall.

The Angels have sinned.

Satan sinned.

Why are we making excuses for why we sin?

Is the flesh some monster that we cannot tame?

The flesh can be tamed and must be tamed at all cost!

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry (Colossians 3:5).

Someone said that if he stole something God wouldn't see him as thief! Blasphemy!

In order to steal you must first covet, and scripture here tells us that covetousness is idolatry!

So you can openly commit idolatry and God wouldn't see it? [stunned]

Some seem to think that sin is an entity we cannot control. Now what kind of God would put all the Old Testament Israelites through all those griefs and punishments knowing that they were simply helpless in sinning!?

The tongue is the only member of our body that scripture says we cannot tame which is why the scripture tells us to be swift to hear and slow to speak. (James 1:19; 3:8).

Do the angels and Satan have flesh like us? What caused them to sin? They have no Flesh.

Wouldn't it be also possible for us to sin in heaven as well?

And why does God chose not to "see" our sins, but saw the ANGEL'S (2 Peter 2:4), SATAN'S (John 8:44), the ISRAELITE'S, and EVE'S sins?

And why tell the Jews to "put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil" (Isaiah 1:16) if they were incapable of doing it? Or even when our Lord told two people point blank SIN NO MORE?

Some of you really believe that God cannot see your sins anymore because the blood blindfolds God eyes? And that God labels you as "righteous" even though you are not righteous?

That would fly in the face of this scripture:

Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil (Isaiah 5:20).

Here Paul makes a good description of the believers state of being:

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We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

"the penalty of sin" which Jesus already paid for. It does not mean that we don't have sin. We are forgiven for our sins past, present and future, if we continue in faith. If we turn back to willfully and deliberately living according to the sinful nature (spiritual darkness), then we have wandered from the truth and need to repent and confess. Consider the following:

"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

Who is James speaking to? Brothers and sisters, which would make them believers. Consequently, in order to wander from the truth, one would have to have been in the truth. Notice that in that wandered state, a believer is accumulating sin and because of that, they are on their way to death.

The blood of Christ covers our sins as long as we continue in faith. However, if we turn back to willfully (deliberately) live according to the sinful nature, then we have wandered from the truth and are walking in spiritual darkness.

Actually, we are going to contend for the truth. From the time we became believers, we began on a journey of being transformed into the image of the Lord, i.e. taking on the nature of God through the Holy Spirit. Like gold, we are continually being refined. The idea is that, as we continue from faith to faith, the new man in Christ is displacing the old sinful nature, which is a life-long process. However, to say that believers do not commit sin is a false belief. By grace through faith in Christ, our sins are continually forgiven/covered, not nonexistent.

We're saved sinners (ongoing)

If you aren't honest with yourself enough to admit your sin, how can you confess it and repent of it? I think this puts a person in some real danger.

Tourist and laffter, you’re disagreeing with Laffter’s own words.

Tourist, laffter, prove me incorrect.

I hope God blesses me with the opportunity to shake your hand, brother. If not, I’ll see you in the Kingdom of Heaven.

How long have you been Christian and when was the last time you sinned?

The thing is we can even sin in the thoughts we think not just the things we do not only is it impossible not to sin it would be far much of a mental strain.

Amen, brother.

Yes, the penalty of sin is death, and Christ took upon Himself that penalty on the cross for all who believe on Him.

However to say "we do not sin" is to (1) deceive ourselves and (2) make God a liar. So you should retract that statement.

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Amen! See you there.