The Texas Chainsaw Bible Massacre

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#1
Back in the day, those claiming to know bible prophecy befuddled me. Little did I know how their forecasts came to be. After many failed prophecies about the Lord’s return, first in 1988, one generation after Israel occupied Palestine. And more predictions, all failing their predicted time, I began to wonder. And on top of this, many failed predictions of the Antichrist being everyone from Henry Kissinger to Mikhail Gorbachev, I began to question my sanity for listening to them.

It turns out, much of their platform came from the hallucinations of young Margaret MacDonald, a Scottish lass who in the 1800s predicted the PreTrib Rapture while burning up with a fever. And then picked up on by J. Darby and Later C.I. Scofield wrote of it alongside scripture in his Scofield Reference Bible in the early 1900s.

This became part of Dispensationalism. A new prophetic framework through which people could relate the bible to current events. Prophecy buffs worldwide spent many hours gleaning the headlines in search of the Antichrist who already had them twirling on his string while they searched for him.

In fact, this sort of futurism is the result of a plan designed by the Jesuits to offset the Reformers who identified the papacy as the Antichrist. The Jesuits inserted a gap of unlimited time between Daniel’s 69th and 70th weeks (Daniel 9:24ff). Saying the 70th week is on hold until Antichrist arrives.

But in doing this, they turned Jesus who already fulfilled the 70th week, into a future Antichrist who would fulfill the 70th week in the distant future. Now more than 2000 years later. The Jesuits thought by doing so, people would think the Antichrist is yet future, so he cannot be the Pope.

It worked having affected a broad swath of Christendom. Placing them into a futuristic mode of reading the bible while missing the present and past fulfillments in prophecy. But the gap, no matter how far into the future, needed a few things.

The original backdrop of the first century had the Roman Empire. The time in which the Kingdom of Christ came. But now disregarded and changed into a Jewish millennium of the future.

This meant, they needed a restored Roman Empire. A rebuilt temple for Antichrist to desecrate. Another great tribulation, and all that belonged to the original 70th week’s prophecy, already fulfilled.

But this forms much of their prophecy today. Already fulfilled prophecy is now said to have “double fulfillment”. So they predict a restored Roman Empire. A new Temple with animal sacrifices for Antichrist to end and so on. Not realizing they missed it the same way the Jews did. The kingdom is spiritual and not the physical kingdom they remain looking for.

And so here we are. The bible scavenger hunt began in the 1800s. Looking for scripture to support this “new way” of reading the bible. A system not based on the bible, but based instead on an imaginary Gap the bible never mentions. This meant sawing one text after another from its original setting. And trying to recreate it in the future with modern technology. An example is Ezekiel 38 -39 where spears become submarines. Horses become jet planes. And the attempt to steal Israel’s cattle becomes oil or any reason battles happen today.

And ancient Gog and Magog become Russia. Without one mention of any of this in scripture. Yet many believe the current wave of false prophecy. Not knowing it comes from an imaginary gap inserted in the bible by Jesuits to deceive Protestants at war with the Reformers of the 1600s.
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#5
And ancient Gog and Magog become Russia. Without one mention of any of this in scripture. Yet many believe the current wave of false prophecy. Not knowing it comes from an imaginary gap inserted in the bible by Jesuits to deceive Protestants at war with the Reformers of the 1600s.
So what is your opinion on Gog and Magog in revelations, are these ancient did revelations misuse the names and that already happened?

Rev 20
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#6
So what is your opinion on Gog and Magog in revelations, are these ancient did revelations misuse the names and that already happened?

Rev 20
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
More than likely Ezekiel 38-39 happened in Esther's day with the Jew's overwhelming victory over Haman's armies who tried to annihilate them. They lived in unwalled villages during that time. And the ancient weaponry fits the times.

Jesus taught a spiritual kingdom only. So Revelation 20 is not about a physical millennium. The gospel bound Satan as we preached it and especially to the gentiles. With Christ's return imminent, it means Satan is now loosed once again to deceive the nations which we see abundant proof of in the world today.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
#7
Back in the day, those claiming to know bible prophecy befuddled me. Little did I know how their forecasts came to be. After many failed prophecies about the Lord’s return, first in 1988, one generation after Israel occupied Palestine. And more predictions, all failing their predicted time, I began to wonder. And on top of this, many failed predictions of the Antichrist being everyone
I've seen some weird "Bible prophecy" hype before, too. There was a show that would come on TBN in the early 90's by a couple of Canadian brothers (brothers in the natural) who would talk about something current in the news, like a chip under a pets skin, and talk about how this could lead to the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. But they'd change the technology each week, and the second half of the show was about the same.

But I don't know if this sort of thing is 'false prophecy.' It's interpretation of scripture.... and the news paper.

It turns out, much of their platform came from the hallucinations of young Margaret MacDonald, a Scottish lass who in the 1800s predicted the PreTrib Rapture while burning up with a fever. And then picked up on by J. Darby and Later C.I. Scofield wrote of it alongside scripture in his Scofield Reference Bible in the early 1900s.
I read a version of it years ago and did not see a case for pre-trib in it. There are different versions of it published by different authors.
In fact, this sort of futurism is the result of a plan designed by the Jesuits to offset the Reformers who identified the papacy as the Antichrist. The Jesuits inserted a gap of unlimited time between Daniel’s 69th and 70th weeks (Daniel 9:24ff). Saying the 70th week is on hold until Antichrist arrives.
The evidence we have regarding the earliest interpretations on eschatology are literalist type interpretations. Papias and others who knew St. John believed the kingdom of Christ would be set up in material form on the earth. Justin Martyr believed in a literal kingdom and thought all likeminded Christians believed the same. Ireneaus held to a similar view.

I don't know of any evidence that they believed in pre-trib, but amil seems to have been a later development.
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#8
More than likely Ezekiel 38-39 happened in Esther's day with the Jew's overwhelming victory over Haman's armies who tried to annihilate them. They lived in unwalled villages during that time. And the ancient weaponry fits the times.

Jesus taught a spiritual kingdom only. So Revelation 20 is not about a physical millennium. The gospel bound Satan as we preached it and especially to the gentiles. With Christ's return imminent, it means Satan is now loosed once again to deceive the nations which we see abundant proof of in the world today.
Where in scripture does it say revelations is spiritual millennium and not physical millennium?

Rev 20
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#9
Where in scripture does it say revelations is spiritual millennium and not physical millennium?

Rev 20
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
Jesus refuted the idea in the gospels. The millennium is a Pharisee doctrine condemned as heresy by the early church. Today it is an attempt to mix Phariseeism with Christianity.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#10
Amillennialism is the historic Church position. They condemned premillennialism as heresy in 431 at Ephesus.
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#11
Jesus refuted the idea in the gospels. The millennium is a Pharisee doctrine condemned as heresy by the early church. Today it is an attempt to mix Phariseeism with Christianity.
I like to see verses that say exactly what you said it is not a physical millennium but a spiritual millennium, if I’m going to believe what you say and learn I need scripture to support the notion of a spiritual millennium
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#12
I like to see verses that say exactly what you said it is not a physical millennium but a spiritual millennium, if I’m going to believe what you say and learn I need scripture to support the notion of a spiritual millennium
Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

“I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

“That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

“And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#13
Where in scripture does it say revelations is spiritual millennium and not physical millennium?

Rev 20
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
This guy does exactly what Scripture says not to do. He has unending private interpretations, and makes the Word mean whatever he likes. Pure unadulterated heresy.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#14
This guy does exactly what Scripture says not to do. He has unending private interpretations, and makes the Word mean whatever he likes. Pure unadulterated heresy.
Dispensationalism is nothing more than an attempt by prophecy mechanics to mix Phariseeism with Christianity.
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#15
Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

“I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

“That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

“And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)
Well this isn’t really about a millennium but the kingdom of God that is Eternal ever lasting which I agree, but so when I see millennium used it is speaking of a thousand years is it not?

is a spiritual millennium only a thousand years?
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#16
Well this isn’t really about a millennium but the kingdom of God that is Eternal ever lasting, so when I see millennium used it is speaking of a thousand years is it not?

is a spiritual millennium only a thousand years?
That's it. The kingdom of God. Where do you find a millennium in the NT? It's a pharisee doctrine from the OT. And they had a veil over their eyes so they could not understand scripture. And you agree with them?
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#17
That's it. The kingdom of God. Where do you find a millennium in the NT? It's a pharisee doctrine from the OT. And they had a veil over their eyes so they could not understand scripture. And you agree with them?
what I posted already, thousand years is a millennium, 100 is a century, 10 is a decade

rev 20
7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#18
what I posted already, thousand years is a millennium, 100 is a century, 10 is a decade

rev 20
7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,
Read it carefully and don't read anything into the passage. The 1000 years is the binding of Satan. It can not be the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed. That is, when they end.
 
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
1,659
113
#19
Read it carefully and don't read anything into the passage. The 1000 years is the binding of Satan. It can not be the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed. That is, when they end.
ok I’m reading the whole chapter right now, so far I see in verse 4 John saw in his vision people come to life and are with Jesus for a millennium. the wording come to life, are you a soul sleeper believer as well? you don’t have to answer I’m just curious

4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

on the millennium word it is ok to use that word as a representation of a thousand years that is in language already, would you not agree it’s in our English Language?
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#20
ok I’m reading the whole chapter right now, so far I see in verse 4 John saw in his vision people come to life and are with Jesus for a millennium. the wording come to life, are you a soul sleeper believer as well? you don’t have to answer I’m just curious

4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

on the millennium word it is ok to use that word as a representation of a thousand years that is in language already, would you not agree it’s in our English Language?

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel); The gospel sent to the whole world.

1000 years are Satan's binding. When they end Satan is loosed. So the 1000 years are not the kingdom. When they end, Satan is loosed, and he attacks the kingdom.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in = imminent return of Christ) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

When did the binding happen? The binding happened in Christ's ministry. This includes preaching the gospel to all nations fulfilling God's promise to Abraham.

“Jesus said, “This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.” (John 12:30–31)

So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.