The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

Perhaps you personally are able to discuss it rationally.

This was the closing summary of the anti-post trib position above on which I was commenting.

"In summary the post-tribulation rapture timing view is not sound and biblical. The only view that is sound and takes in consideration of the entire “big picture” of Bible prophecy is the pre-tribulation rapture timing view that places the rapture before the terrible Tribulation period and the wrath of God. I hope this article has been helpful to you in understanding the truth taught in the Bible."

Re: 2Th2:8, do you believe "the man of sin" will "be revealed" at the same moment that ^ the Lord will "destroy" him, since these two items are both spoken of in this verse?

Or would you say there is a time-element [time-factor/space of time/duration of time] involved, that the reader of this passage should come to grasp, and if so, what is it?


And, by the way, welcome... I notice you are NEW. Hope to see you around the boards.


[for the readers, chk out my Post #215 of this thread, addressing some of those ^ very issues]


EDIT to add: Where Paul uses the phrase "OUR Lord Jesus Christ" (etc) he is speaking of "our Rapture" point in time (which is what the phrase "the Day of Christ" [etc] relates to [when WE are "caught UP" to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR, and are UP THERE WITH HIM]... and note that 2Th2:2 should read "the Day of the LORD" [the EARTHLY time period with its "man of sin" and its JUDGMENTS unfolding]).

Rational discussion first is recognized as void of ad hom's, name calling, and sarcasm.

Yes, a perfectly rational closing summary to the article I posted. One would have to prove with credible scripture in proper context a post tribulation rapture. In as much saying that the body of Christ will suffer the wrath prophesied before we are set free of what is left of the world.

Hi Absolutely
What part of Rev.14 only fits a pretrib rapture?

Incorrect.
Saul's/Paul's epistles (letters) were not in chapter verse form as appears in our Bible today. It was a letter written as we write letters today. Therefore, his letter to the churches in Thessalonica would continue from "chapter 4" unto chapter 5. And in proper context then the verses 14 through 17 would indeed refer to pre-tribulation rapture of those alive in Christ and those asleep, as chapter 5 speaks of the day of the Lord, which is the troubles or tribulation to come.

Chapter 5
The Day of the Lord
5 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers,[a] you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children[b] of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Final Instructions and Benediction
12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. 14 And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle,[c] encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. 15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

25 Brothers, pray for us.

26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.

27 I put you under oath before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

You call THIS rational?
" post-tribulation rapture timing view is not sound and biblical. The only view that is sound and takes in consideration of the entire “big picture” of Bible prophecy is the pre-tribulation rapture "

I don't
It's a pre-tribber's sense of entitlement that scripture belongs only to a pre-trib theory. And it is only theory.

Your claim that a post-trib or mid trib position is a statement that the church will suffer the wrath of God is false.
Staunch pre-trib supporters simply don't listen.

it's not just that.

It has to do with how the phrase "the Day of the Lord" is defined.

Some believe it only refers to the point in time of Christ's return in Rev19 (or that point in time and following); but it involves much more than that. It involves the entire tribulation period as well. So that, Paul (in 1Th5 [the quoted passage in that poster's post]) is saying that we will not be present on the earth at the same time that it (the DOTL) commences/ARRIVES (to unfold upon the earth).

Neither Noah or Lot were taken from the earth Noah stayed in the Ark for forty days and nights and Lot fled to another city. The main point is that God protected both of them without them having to leave the earth. It seems that you believe that the only way God can protect his own is in having them leaving here altogether. The strange thing is that it seems according to the dispensationalist
teaching in which the Pre Trib rapture is a part Jews have to put up with the tribulation while the Church is having a wedding feast in heaven. I wonder where Messianic Jews fit into this scenario.

The Bridesmaid parable interpretation is interesting. Its based on a Jewish marriage. In the time of Jesus the prospective groom
made a contract with the prospective Bride. The groom returned to his Fathers house and set about preparing the home for his Bride
meanwhile the Bride waited for his return which could happen at any time. When he arrives the Bride and her Maids meet him and the the couple return to the Grooms Fathers house. There is one thing thing that doesn't happen. The Bride and groom don't return to the Brides neighbourhood some years later and wreck it. This is what appears to happen in a Pre Trib Scenario because the Groom
arrives first for his Bride and then some seven years later come back again to wreak wrath and judgement on the worlds population.

What really happens is Christ returns with those who have died in him they receive resurrected transformed immortal bodies and
those still alive are also transformed in a twinkling of an eye and meet him and the resurrected saints in the air. They then escort him
to the earth and arrive at the mount of Olives to do battle with the Antichrist.

Jesus said that after the Tribulation the events surrounding his second coming would happen. Why does it seem so difficult to
believe him?

Wow, I seem to recall having quoted your saying this very thing ^ long ago, where I responded by making the point that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth. (It will not be located in heaven! And is NOT the PURPOSE for "our Rapture" )

(I realize member "Abs" does not agree... though he is also pre-trib, he does have some unconventional views such as "multiple raptures" and a rapture in Rev14, so forth)


Matt24:29-31 is indeed AFTER the trib, but is NOT "our Rapture"... It parallels Isa27:12-13 (re: Israel [believing remnant of] who will be gathered ONE by ONE [not "AS ONE" (as WE will be!)] [for them] to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM [a horizontal gathering!])

I went back and read the article.
Still scratching my head as to what you might believe since those postrib power points are used consistently.

What is an example of a postrib rapture verse?
Those verses say that the dead resurrect and precede the living in the rapture...to heaven....not earth.

We both agree he returns postrib to the earth.
In mat 25 we see the virgins,half of them,go to the marriage chamber (heaven) and in mat 24 the one taken one left as a "before the flood" dynamic.
Further,at the last supper,Jesus dialog is bride/groom and aligns with the Jewish wedding betrothal.
Most everyone misses the dialog of "in remembrance of me" pointing to the groom returning to take his bride home.
The last supper is the betrothal where we and Jesus separate and devote ourselves to each other until the permanent union in heaven.

IOW if we see the betrothal we see WHY the dead and living are gathered together.

...for one event in heaven...the marriage.
Remember the first miracle is canonized as at a wedding.
First miracle=wedding
It had to be the first.(because last=first/first=last)
Had to be a wedding dynamic.

Remember it was said "but you saved the best wine for last"
That is the covenant Jews.

Remember rev 14
Remember "ripe fruit"
That is the grape harvest.
During the gt.
The wedding is complete as is the supper. In heaven with both covenant peoples
...the best wine for last.

TheDevineWatermark,

Thanks for the welcome!

The way that I have been able to piece it together so far (by the grace of God) is:

1. The man of sin will be on earth for time forcing the mark and worship of the beast.

2. Saved people will be beheaded or escape capture until the Lord comes.

3. The elect who were beheaded (sleeping in Christ) or escaped execution (changed at a twinkling of an eye) are caught up to meet the Lord when he comes.

4. The man of sin will be destroyed.

5. Vials of the wrath of God are poured out (Revelation 16).

6. Satan is bound 1,000 years; Christ reigns on earth with the elect who did not worship the beast.

7. Satan loosed after 1,000 years, then cast into lake of fire upon being defeated.

8. Rest of the dead are raised to stand judgment out of the book, including the book of life (John 5:28-29, 2 Corinthians 5:10).

9. New Jerusalem descends.

10. Saved nations enter the holy city.

Uh excuse me
Noah went over a mile into the heavens (during the judgement) via the water.
Lot was removed from the city.
He left the city (earth)
Remember,part of the family stayed.
But lot was practically forced to leave.
You can't erase what it is by reframing it beyond what it is.

It is like you saying the lamb sacrifice in no way represents or points to Jesus because no lamb ever was crucified.

. ""The Bride and groom don't return to the Brides neighbourhood some years later and wreck it. This is what appears to happen in a Pre Trib Scenario because the Groom
arrives first for his Bride and then some seven years later come back again to wreak wrath and judgement on the worlds population.""
And yet you state just that in your postrib rapture model...just in a shorter span.

When the marrige/bride/groom/supper/betrothal dynamics are brought to the table, it changes the debate.

Heaven looks through the groom/bride prism.

Most men only see tribulation/earth/and the temporal.
The apex is the bride/groom reunited.
Ruth...the gentile bride.

Well, one of the things that bothers me about the "I used to be a pretribber… until" [used by folks] is that in almost every case I can think of (of discussions where I was involved, whether online or IRL), when I've asked the person to "explain what it is they believed, when they were 'pre-trib'," they have "explained" it in a way that is NOT EVEN CORRECT (and it makes me wonder... had they had a CORRECT teaching on it, surely they would not have "gone after" a viewpoint having mis-steps leading even further away from what they [incorrectly] started with. O_O [edit to add: I'm not saying that they lose their salvation, or that they are not saved, or that they won't go in the rapture, etc... No. Not saying that. ])

The rapture is the groom returning for his bride.
That happens pretrib.
A postrib rapture possibility is removed by several dynamics.

Making a postrib rapture impossible.

It is called "condemnation before investigation"...our verses are not considered

Nope. Not according to scripture

MARK 13 [19] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.[21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

{verses 19-23 describe the trib period}
{verses 24-27 describe the Day of the Lord}

[24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

In Mark you see the great tribulation period is FOLLOWED by a dark sun and dark moon

JOEL 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARK, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for THE DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Mark 13:24 AFTER that tribulation

JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

ACTS 2[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD COME:

As found in Joel; found in the book of Acts

There can be no doubt. Joel and Mark and Acts are speaking of the same event. The book of Acts & Joel says the the sun will be darkened BEFORE the "day of the Lord". Mark says the sun will be darkened AFTER the tribulation. How can anyone claim the great tribulation period to be part of the "day of the Lord" if the "day of the Lord" doesnt begin till AFTER the tribulation?

You're not quoting the complete thought being expressed in Joel 2:31.

It is connected with [the parallel] "6th SEAL event" located in the FIRST HALF of the trib, i.e. "BEFORE the GREAT..." [read the Joel2:31 again, this time more carefully] (The SECOND HALF of the 7 yrs is what Jesus is calling "GREAT tribulation" and in Rev7 "THE GREAT tribulation"... at that point, only 1260 days are remaining...) This is not the trib yrs in its ENTIRETY, that Joel 2:31 is speaking of, but SPECIFICALLY "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect OF it. [exactly where we see "SEAL #6" unfolding!]


Once the reader grasps that, then note again what I said in an earlier post:

"the Day of the Lord's ARRIVAL" has no "signs" or the like which PRECEDE it, it comes on them "SUDDENLY" like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman with child... (and it is not "one and done" but many MORE follow on from that point [of which, Jesus spoke of the PLURALS in regard to this]).

It is lock-step: Our Departure [well before SEAL #6], then BOOM "the DOTL" is present to unfold upon the earth (with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO)

This is what tells me you have no idea what is actually being discussed: "...It's a pre-tribber's sense of entitlement that scripture belongs only to a pre-trib theory. And it is only theory."

You and any others here who use the same colloquialisms, "pre-tribber's", "free willers", lose all credibility the moment you write those meaningless words.
If you're unable to comport yourself in a reasonable manner and with proper diction, and especially after you claim you prefer rational thinking in discussions concerning scripture, then don't expect to be taken as any more than a trouble maker.

The onus is on you and those who think there is no such thing in scripture as pretribulation rapture, but rather, post tribulation rapture.

Find the scripture in proper context that proves your argument for a post tribulation rapture. Your effort in offering 1 Thessalonians 4 failed.

Don't attack people using scurrilous dismissives thinking that proves your point. It does not. Rather, it shows you are not secure in your argument and you then seek to make the member you address focus on the perceived slight you intend them to take offense to in your postings.

That doesn't work with me. That kind of post tells me you need to grow up so that you are able to speak then years in the future as an adult. And about adult topics and showing the proper respect for scripture in the case of entering this Bible Discussion Forum.

Rational and Biblically sound.

Perhaps I should re-word the enlarged part ^ for better clarity:

"the ARRIVAL [point in time] OF the Day of the Lord" [which is an EARTHLY "time period" of MUCH duration]

...lest anyone mistake what I am saying, because...

"the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES well-before the Lord HIMSELF arrives [as in, His "RETURN" to the earth] later in the chronology of associated events.

IOW, there is a distinction in the following two phrases:

--"the Day of the Lord so cometh [i.e. ARRIVES] as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (THIS is at the START of the EARTHLY "TIME PERIOD" [i.e at the START of the TRIB yrs])

--but NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase accompanies the SIMILAR phrase when it is speaking of JESUS HIMSELF [HIS PERSON]: "Behold, I come AS A THIEF. [period]" (THIS is at the time surrounding Armageddon and His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19. A wholly distinct occasion, with entirely distinct purposes, etc)