Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

You not only twist my words, but you also twist God's word!

I am quite aware that it was Moses that spoke to the burning bush! And that Abraham lived 400 years before Moses.

Jesus is the one who went said "before Abraham I AM." And yes, I did confuse the names in the portion you put in red. Probably a function of typing on my phone late at night, and also having a bad stomach flu, which I still have.

It is pretty obvious it was a mistake, by the rest of the passage. And you certainly took it and jumped in it, rather than replying to the content of my post.

1. Jesus says "before Abraham was I AM" or YHVH, (Hebrew) or ego eimi (Greek). Jesus is the one who started with Abraham, then switched to Moses. From an ancient world literary viewpoint, that is perfectly acceptable. Not even the Pharisees were mad about that. They were mad because Jesus said:
A. He lived before Abraham - in other words, he was NOT a created being.
B. Jesus said he was YHVH

The Jews tried to stone him for saying he was YHVH. Now, if Jesus was not saying, "I am God," he could have told the Pharisees they misunderstood, or admitted his mistake. But he did NOT!

He used his power to escape a stoning! He let it stand that he was ego eimi! That he was God. God as the one being, ousia, who was the second person or hypostasis, of the triune God.

So, by focusing on my mistake, you have not dealt with the central issue in my post, which is:

Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??

Jesus made a clear statement that he is the same God as Moses met at the burning bush, and that he was an eternal being, uncreated, by saying he lived before Abraham, who was the Father of the Jews.

So, one more time, "Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??

And since he did say he was God, is it not time to let go of your Unitarian bad theology, and confess Jesus as God and Saviour, so you may be saved?

That's the problem; you think you're being clear, but you're not, and I'm not the only person who tells you so. This is not about one particular post of yours; your writing is consistently unclear.

1. Jesus says "before Abraham was I AM" or YHVH, (Hebrew) or ego eimi (Greek). Jesus is the one who started with Abraham, then switched to Moses. From an ancient world literary viewpoint, that is perfectly acceptable. Not even the Pharisees were mad about that. They were mad because Jesus said:
A. He lived before Abraham - in other words, he was NOT a created being.
B. Jesus said he was YHVH

1. Jesus says "before Abraham was I AM" or YHVH, (Hebrew) or ego eimi (Greek). Jesus is the one who started with Abraham, then switched to Moses. From an ancient world literary viewpoint, that is perfectly acceptable. Not even the Pharisees were mad about that. They were mad because Jesus said:
A. He lived before Abraham - in other words, he was NOT a created being.

B. Jesus said he was YHVH

The Jews tried to stone him for saying he was YHVH. Now, if Jesus was not saying, "I am God," he could have told the Pharisees they misunderstood, or admitted his mistake. But he did NOT!

Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??

Did you have a question?

My ability suffers.

That's illogical. Adam lived before Abraham, and he was a created being!

No, Jesus did not say that he was Yahweh. He was speaking Aramaic, not Hebrew, and this passage is written in Greek, not Hebrew. The Greek translated to English effectively says, "I existed before Abraham came into existence". Look at the context:

John 8:
31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Note that Jesus is speaking with Jews that believed him, not to the Pharisees as you claimed above.

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

They are asking who Jesus is, and clearly Jesus is not saying that he is the Father.

48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Here he is saying that he honours his father (Yahweh), that he does not seek his own glory, but that there is someone else that does seek and judges (Yahweh). He is not saying that he is that God.

51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

So it is the believing Jews who brought up the subject of Abraham, because Abraham and all the prophets were dead, thereby implying that they had not abided by what Jesus taught. Hence they asked,

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
or
54 (MKJV) Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say that He is your God.

So Jesus is saying that it is his father (Yahweh) that glorifies Jesus, and that the Jews claim that Jesus' father is God (Yahweh). Again, clearly Jesus is not claiming to be Yahweh, whom the Jews say is their God.

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Again Jesus says that he knows Yahweh, not that he is Yahweh.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus states that Abraham rejoiced to learn of the coming messiah, and the Jews reacted as if Jesus was claiming to have spoken with Abraham, and sarcasticly said that he was less than 50 years old so that he could not have seen Abraham. Jesus, like our Father Yahweh, does not lie, so he stated that he had been alive from before Abraham's birth.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

It does not say why they then wanted to stone him. They probably did not full understand what he was saying, and they probably did not believe Jesus' claim to have been alive since before Abraham, and so turned against hime because they thought he had been lying to them. We know better.

Here are five points that define the Trinity. Can you list Scriptures which prove each point?

1. There is one God, and his name is YHVH.
2. This one God reveals Himself in Three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. The Father is God.
4. The Son is God.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. These three Persons are co-eternal and co-essential, meaning that each Person has always existed, and they all share the same
essence.

Although I don’t disagree with those six points It’s is worth noting that words like Co eternal and essence depend more on church councils than scripture.

There is no such thing as a religious Jew who doesn't understand the meaning of Exodus 3:14.
The Lord's allusion to it is obvious and that is why they wanted to stone him.

It's clear from scripture who The Messiah is. And that Jesus was killed because he claimed to be God.

I refer you to my post above. A clear Messianic prophecy.

Isaiah 9: 6-7 (ESV)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;

and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

It's not obvious. The translators translated it as "Before Abraham was, I am" because they were believers of the trinity, so they used poor English ("I am" instead of "I have been", or "I have existed") to make readers think that the Greek text was the same as the Hebrew YHVH, which has been translated as "the existing One", or "I am that I am" or "I will be what I will be". Jesus never claimed to be Yahweh, or his/the Father.

Consider John 10:
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Mt 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

John the baptist said:
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.



No, it's clear from the scriptures I quoted above that Jesus claimed to be the son of God, not God. That's what the chief priests, scribes and elders believed.

On the cross Jesus cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If he was God, why was he calling out to God?!


Yes, God gave His only begotten son. The scriptures are quite clear about that. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

Note that it says he will be called The (or "a") Mighty God, not Almighty God, and not Yahweh.
A father is a life-giver. Jesus is the one through whom we have everlasting life, so he will be called the everlasting father. Abraham and Adam are referred to as father by their descendants, likewise Jesus will be referred to as father because he gives us eternal life:

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening [life giving] spirit.

The Messiah is not God. We are to become members of the body of Christ, that is, members of the body of Messiah (Christ is a translation of Messiah, or rather a transliteration of the Greek translation of the Hebrew word for Messiah). Do you believe that we are part of God too? If you do than you can't believe that God is a Trinity. If you don't then you can't believe in the Trinity either!

It's not obvious. The translators translated it as "Before Abraham was, I am" because they were believers of the trinity, so they used poor English ("I am" instead of "I have been", or "I have existed") to make readers think that the Greek text was the same as the Hebrew YHVH, which has been translated as "the existing One", or "I am that I am" or "I will be what I will be". Jesus never claimed to be Yahweh, or his/the Father.

Consider John 10:
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Mt 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

John the baptist said:
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.



No, it's clear from the scriptures I quoted above that Jesus claimed to be the son of God, not God. That's what the chief priests, scribes and elders believed.

On the cross Jesus cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If he was God, why was he calling out to God?!


Yes, God gave His only begotten son. The scriptures are quite clear about that. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

Note that it says he will be called The (or "a") Mighty God, not Almighty God, and not Yahweh.
A father is a life-giver. Jesus is the one through whom we have everlasting life, so he will be called the everlasting father. Abraham and Adam are referred to as father by their descendants, likewise Jesus will be referred to as father because he gives us eternal life:

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening [life giving] spirit.

The Messiah is not God. We are to become members of the body of Christ, that is, members of the body of Messiah (Christ is a translation of Messiah, or rather a transliteration of the Greek translation of the Hebrew word for Messiah). Do you believe that we are part of God too? If you do than you can't believe that God is a Trinity. If you don't then you can't believe in the Trinity either!

As I have repeatedly said, Jesus is both God and man. But let's look at what Jesus said to the Pharisees.

"and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." John 8:55-59
.

When Jesus said I AM, he is really saying that He is Jahweh God the Father. That's why the Jews got angry.

Hello just_truth, Jesus never claimed to be His Father, but you are correct in saying that He did claim to be YHWH (which is the personal name of God) when He told the Jews, "I am". God the Father is YHWH, God the Son is also YHWH, as is God the Holy Spirit, but the Son is not the Father, neither is the Father the Son, etc.

~Deut

Surely this has already been posted somewhere in this long thread, but I will post it again here for the sake of reference (with a special emphasis on paragraphs two and three below in regard to this discussion). Also, please note that the word "catholic" refers to the universal church, NOT the Roman Catholic church!


~Deut