Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

That's why Jesus could be God and yet call God his Father.

Over and over you keep showing your ignorance. NO, NO, NO!!

Jesus is not both a person and a being. Your English is your stumbling block. You are confusing "human being" with "being" which refers to the essence and nature of God.

A person is someone capable of being an individual, true. But, when referring to deity, a person is one of the three persons which make up ONE being.

Greek makes a lot more sense. And that is partly because Greek theology comes through Latin in the west, and the Latin words are not equivalent.

Ousia - Being - to be, to exist. That is the nature of the whole of God. He exists.

Hypostasis - This is person in Latin, and English. It doesn't really mean totally that in Greek.
Hypostasis is the underlying state or underlying substance and is the fundamental reality that supports all else. In Christian theology, a hypostasis is one of the three hypostases of the Trinity."

So, your confusion simply comes from trying to make the words "being" and "person" the same! They are not in English or Greek. Your mistake is understandable. Wrong definitions can do that to theology.

"The Persons (or Hypostases) of the Trinity, therefore, are immanent relations of origin that operate within the Godhead. They are the subjects of God’s action and answer the question Who?

The Divine Substance, on the other hand, answers the question of what kind of being God is.

Again, it should be stressed that the Persons do not “divide” the Divine Substance in any way; God remains utterly simple and undivided.

In Christology, just as in Trinitarian theology, “nature” or “substance” answers the question, “What kind of being is Jesus Christ?” and the answer, is “God and man.”

“Person” or “hypostasis” answers the question, “Who is Jesus Christ?” and the answer is, “the Divine Son, the Word, the Second Person of the Trinity.”

Is the triune God “three separate Persons”?

No, the Persons are in no way separate from each other. The are really distinct (that is, the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit, and so forth). However, they cannot be considered “separate” from one antother, because each person is perfectly identical to the Divine Substance. (Each Person possesses the Substance in its “entirety”—which we say very improperly, because God does not have parts—and possesses the very same, undivided Divine Substance as the others.)

Of course, God is infinitely “separate” (in the sense of infinitely independent) from His creatures—which is what makes Him, so to speak, the Substance par excellence. (He is not, however, “separate” in the sense of “distant;” indeed, there is no one more “present” to creation than He is.)

Does this mean the triune God is ”three separate substances”, each existing apart from other substances, consisting of one substance?

No. God is a unique, undivided Substance. He is unique, undivided, and also triune; that is, within the Godhead, there are three subjects that can be the answer to the question “Who?” The Persons (or Hypostases) differ from one another only in relation of origin (Fatherhood, Sonship, and Procession); in every other respect—that is, with respect to the entire Divine Substance—they are perfectly identical."*

Noose et al - you are using terms wrong, and you know nothing about philosophy or church history. More than that, you simply cannot be a Christian if Jesus is not fully God and fully man. The Father sent Christ to redeem us from our sins. He died in our place. If he was just a man, then his death would avail nothing. He needs to be God to intercede for us. If he is only God, then he is not human, and never came to earth. All the prophecies of the incarnation in the OT and it being fulfilled in the NT are impossible. If you do not believe in the Trinity, you are not a Christian, which numerous people have mentioned in this thread.

More to come! Need to go search some of my papers on the Trinity I did for my PhD research!

*https://christianity.stackexchange....s-the-difference-between-person-and-substance

Christians in general talk about God. God is a family. That may be astonishing to many but its true. In human terms imagine a family
say you use your own family. I will use a typical family called Smith. In this family there are Mr Smith, Mrs Smith and a Son also called Smith. If you see them together you may say there goes the Smith family. But if you see one say the Father you would say there goes
Joe smith the Mother may be Jane Smith and the Son may be Peter Smith. On there own they are individuals but together they are a family called Smith. When talking about God you have a God Family we call The Father' Son' and Holy Spirit. On their own they have
different identities but together they are have one identity we call God. That's why Jesus could be God and yet call God his Father.
The incredible thing is that the God family is expanding. Being a Son of God is being one with God. Welcome to the Family!

This statement makes no sense. Let us look at this from reason and logic. Now let us look at this in the following manner and see if it makes any sense what you just said.

God = Supreme Being
The Father = God
Jesus = God

Now using trinity concept your above statement can be interpreted as follows "That's why God (Jesus) could be God and yet call God his God (Father)" Now how does this make any sense? Now if you are supreme, the highest power and authority, there can be no one else higher above. So how can one who is supreme, acknowledge another as being higher up? That makes no sense at all.

Confusion galore.

Q. Is Jesus (one person and one being) God by Himself or must he be with others to be called God?

Matt 11:25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

'the man is the head of the woman' ?

This statement makes no sense. Let us look at this from reason and logic. Now let us look at this in the following manner and see if it makes any sense what you just said.

God = Supreme Being
The Father = God
Jesus = God

Now using trinity concept your above statement can be interpreted as follows "That's why God (Jesus) could be God and yet call God his God (Father)" Now how does this make any sense? Now if you are supreme, the highest power and authority, there can be no one else higher above. So how can one who is supreme, acknowledge another as being higher up? That makes no sense at all.

In this case we have Three Smiths, why aren't Christians in general talking about three gods?

You started this thread and we both know why .. You've been pretty much drug up and down each page of it ... lol

who do you say Christ is?

If it wasn't for the specific message about the oneness of God, trinity will not have issues claiming that there are three gods.

The oneness of god = Tawhid (Arabic). An Islamic belief. A strict monotheism. An impostor god represented by a false prophet.

I believe sometimes you gotta know what it is or ain't before you step in it

You started this thread and we both know why .. You've been pretty much drug up and down each page of it ... lol

While Islam does teach strict monotheism and is a false religion, it must be acknowledged that the Bible teaches monotheism as well. Your post (in isolation) suggests that monotheism is not a biblically-sound belief. I'm sure you didn't intend that.

The oneness of god = Tawhid (Arabic). An Islamic belief. A strict monotheism. An impostor god represented by a false prophet.

The oneness of god = Tawhid (Arabic). An Islamic belief. A strict monotheism. An impostor god represented by a false prophet.

Oneness is a natural position but triunness is a forced position; you encounter verses where God ascribes plurality to Himself and those that ascribe God's attributes to the Father, the Son and the holy spirit and are still faced with verses that affirm God's oneness, so you are forced to explain. Trinity happened to be one of the explanations but don't say the bible teaches trinity (3 persons in 1 being), it doesn't.

I thank you for you honest heartfelt response but I am certain that my faith and doctrine is correct, not that I'm saying that I would ignore hard evidence which disagrees with my faith.



I've heard this argument before but never really could understand why it was an issue, it's more of a philosophical argument over a biblical one. Nowhere in the scriptures that God had to love someone for love to exist. God does not need anyone, namely, the other persons of the trinity, to be or have love. God is eternal and his attributes are eternal, God's justice, wisdom, and power weren't reliant on any being or creation for him to possess those qualities, likewise, God's love is and wasn't reliant on the other two persons of the trinity for him to have love. God doesn't need anyone for him to possess his attributes, to claim God needed the other persons of the trinity to have an attribute is to limit God when God has no limits.

For example, someone who lacks the attribute of being just cannot display justice, only someone who is just can display justice. The same can be said about any attribute, to display any attribute they need exist in the person by nature prior to that person displaying it. God was wise prior to him displaying his wisdom, God was all-powerful prior to him demonstrating his power, God was just prior to him showing his justice, God had love prior to him ever expressing his love.



What many fail to realise is Jesus acted as God agent, God did many things through Jesus, in turn Jesus is referred to as doing the actions of the one who ordained those actions in the first place. For example Hebrews 1: 9,10 is attributes the creation of the world ot Jesus, this is a quote -which I'm sure you'll agree- from the OT in Ps 102:25-27 where it applies it to Yahweh. Now, many people such as yourself would see this as evidence that Jesus was Yahweh, yet what many do not realise is that the Father created the world through Jesus, which is evident by Hebrews 1:1,2 "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of his Son... through whom he made the universe". Since the Father created the world through Jesus both the Father and Jesus made the world, the Father was the source and originator of creation however. Hence the application made to God in Ps 102:25-27 is also applicable to Jesus.

So again, OT quotes of God are applied to Christ at times as it was Christ who was doing the actions on behalf of the Father, since the instruction came from the Father both persons can be said to have done the action.