1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-18, WHY do people say that JESUS IS going to bring the dead in CHRIST when HE comes back here, In 1 Thess 4:13-18
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I've heard that many times and actually I used to believe that until I asked myself "why"?
Nothing in the text says that it's anything other than those 7 churches so I don't believe they represent churches down through time anymore.
One thing that we can say for sure is that the idea that those churches aren't literal churches, doesn't come from the bible itself. Someone came up with that as a part of their "end times" belief story and it resonated with a lot of people.
The story sounds a little Jesuit influenced to me.
Nothing in the text says that it's anything other than those 7 churches so I don't believe they represent churches down through time anymore.
One thing that we can say for sure is that the idea that those churches aren't literal churches, doesn't come from the bible itself. Someone came up with that as a part of their "end times" belief story and it resonated with a lot of people.
The story sounds a little Jesuit influenced to me.
I am a Uneducated, and not very smart ether, BUT I believe that GOD Has helped me to understand a few things in the BIBLE, MANY many many people know the BIBLE MUCH better then me, GOD IS the ONE to look to, But if I can help, I will, not that I'm anything, And if I don't know I will tell you And believe me there is MUCH that I don't know, I don't want no one to BELIEVE what I say, UNLESS they see it in the BIBLE, as a WHOLE, But we can not see what GOD is saying JUST by one or TWO verses, WE HAFT TO HAVE THE WHOLE BIBLE and line it up just like a fence, And when it line up all the BIBLE from one end to the other, THEN very GOOD , WE need all the verses on the same subject, to even try to understand GODs WORD, GOD bless as HE sees fit,
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"For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
The spirits of those who have died in Christ are in heaven in the presence of the Lord. When the time comes for the resurrection, the Lord will bring with Him all of those spirits who will be reunited with the immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take all believers back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us according to His promise.
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."
The spirits of those who have died in Christ are in heaven in the presence of the Lord. When the time comes for the resurrection, the Lord will bring with Him all of those spirits who will be reunited with the immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take all believers back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us according to His promise.
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."
John 14:1-3 is the promise and 1 Thess.4:13-18 is the detailed account of when the Lord comes to gather His church.
The on-going problem with your claim that the gathering of the church takes place when the Lord returns to the earth is that, prior to that, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Therefore, your claim would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, the wrath of God no longer rests upon the one who believes. By your claim you are nullifying what Jesus did.
What does the destruction of the man of lawlessness at Jesus coming have to do with the gathering of the church? The church is gathered at the resurrection. At that time the Lord does not return to the earth, but takes the entire church back to the Father's house. Then at the end of God's wrath the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom. It is at this time that the beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to establish His kingdom are two separate events. The gathering of the church takes place prior to the first seal being opened and the Lord's return to the earth takes place after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.
Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom and has nothing to do with the gathering of the church. Those people that the angels will be gathering will be those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. These along with the remnant of Israel are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth.
In short, your gigantic problem with putting the gathering of the church as taking place after God's wrath is that, believers cannot go through God's wrath, because Jesus already satisfied it completely and fully. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath will come upon the whole entire earth, then we cannot be here.
The on-going problem with your claim that the gathering of the church takes place when the Lord returns to the earth is that, prior to that, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Therefore, your claim would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, the wrath of God no longer rests upon the one who believes. By your claim you are nullifying what Jesus did.
What does the destruction of the man of lawlessness at Jesus coming have to do with the gathering of the church? The church is gathered at the resurrection. At that time the Lord does not return to the earth, but takes the entire church back to the Father's house. Then at the end of God's wrath the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom. It is at this time that the beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to establish His kingdom are two separate events. The gathering of the church takes place prior to the first seal being opened and the Lord's return to the earth takes place after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.
Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom and has nothing to do with the gathering of the church. Those people that the angels will be gathering will be those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. These along with the remnant of Israel are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth.
In short, your gigantic problem with putting the gathering of the church as taking place after God's wrath is that, believers cannot go through God's wrath, because Jesus already satisfied it completely and fully. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath will come upon the whole entire earth, then we cannot be here.
All the saints who are presently in Heaven are "the dead in Christ". Their souls and spirits are with Christ in Heaven. Their bodies have turned to dust in their graves. In order to receive their resurrected and glorified bodies, they are brought by Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture, given their bodies, then taken back to Heaven. At the same time the saints who are alive on earth are transformed and also taken up (raptured) to Heaven.
When people have a WARPED THEOLOGY they cannot understand Bible truth. So you need to abandon all your false beliefs (no doubt indoctrinated by your church or denomination).
When people have a WARPED THEOLOGY they cannot understand Bible truth. So you need to abandon all your false beliefs (no doubt indoctrinated by your church or denomination).
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Ecc 9:5 does not say what you think it does. How is it that you and others love to grab ahold that one vague verse and then ignore all of the other scriptures that demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body?
Saul used the medium of Endor to call up Samuel who came up out of Sheol/Hades. (1 Sam.28:7
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus on the mountain where He was transfigured (Luke 9:30)
At the opening of the 5th seal, we see the souls of those who will have been killed for their testimony, who are conscious and aware and having a conversation with the Lord. (Rev.6:9-11)
Jesus told the man crucified next to Him saying "today you will be with me in paradise." How could Jesus make that promise to him when they both died that very same day? It was speaking of their spirits departing and going down into that place of comfort in Sheol/Hades which is the same place that Abraham and Lazarus were.
You've Stephan being stoned and seeing the Lord standing at the right hand of the Father and saying, "Lord, receive my spirit." How could the Lord receive his spirit if it is sleeping the ground with his decaying body?
"And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it." (Rev.5:1-3)
"And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all that is in them"
The reference to those under the earth, is referring to the spirits of the wicked who are in Sheol/Hades.
The event of the rich man and Lazarus shows two men who had died, yet their spirits were conscious and aware in Sheol/Hades. Those who turn this into a parable are just getting rid of the plain truth and then asking for proof.
So, you want to ignore all of the above and claim Ecc.9:5?
There is no such thing as soul-sleep! This is just another false teaching. As we can see from the rich man and Lazarus, both men died, yet their spirits were conscious and aware down in Hades. There was a great chasm separating two areas. On the side of comfort/paradise was Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints. And on the other side was the rich man and the rest of the unrighteous dead in torment in flame.
Saul used the medium of Endor to call up Samuel who came up out of Sheol/Hades. (1 Sam.28:7
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus on the mountain where He was transfigured (Luke 9:30)
At the opening of the 5th seal, we see the souls of those who will have been killed for their testimony, who are conscious and aware and having a conversation with the Lord. (Rev.6:9-11)
Jesus told the man crucified next to Him saying "today you will be with me in paradise." How could Jesus make that promise to him when they both died that very same day? It was speaking of their spirits departing and going down into that place of comfort in Sheol/Hades which is the same place that Abraham and Lazarus were.
You've Stephan being stoned and seeing the Lord standing at the right hand of the Father and saying, "Lord, receive my spirit." How could the Lord receive his spirit if it is sleeping the ground with his decaying body?
"And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it." (Rev.5:1-3)
"And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all that is in them"
The reference to those under the earth, is referring to the spirits of the wicked who are in Sheol/Hades.
The event of the rich man and Lazarus shows two men who had died, yet their spirits were conscious and aware in Sheol/Hades. Those who turn this into a parable are just getting rid of the plain truth and then asking for proof.
So, you want to ignore all of the above and claim Ecc.9:5?
There is no such thing as soul-sleep! This is just another false teaching. As we can see from the rich man and Lazarus, both men died, yet their spirits were conscious and aware down in Hades. There was a great chasm separating two areas. On the side of comfort/paradise was Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints. And on the other side was the rich man and the rest of the unrighteous dead in torment in flame.
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Ye do errow, THE dead DOSE NOT GO to HEAVEN, JOB 7:21 In why dost thou not pardon my transgression and take away mine iquity, For now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning but I will not be. When Paul says that we sleep, he means in the dust, NOT up in HEAVEN. AND JESUS DOSE NOT say that HE coming after a dead BODY. HE is coming after HIS SAINTS. THE breath GO's back to GOD who gave it, And that DON'T MEAN BACK TO HEAVEN. IT means THAT the breath is gone out of them, IT belongs to GOD,
GOD bless as HE sees fit
GOD bless as HE sees fit
* The Lord appears in the air where he calls up the church, dead and living and takes them back to the Father's house
* The antichrist is revealed by making his seven year agreement with Israel
* The wrath of God takes place during that entire seven years via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
* After the 7th bowl is poured out, Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom
* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire
* The wicked will be collected by the angels and will be killed by that double-edged sword which will proceed from His mouth
* Satan is seize and thrown into and sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years
* Millennial kingdom
* Satan is released at the end of the thousand years for one last rebelion
* Great white throne judgment
This is the correct chronological order of end-time events
* The antichrist is revealed by making his seven year agreement with Israel
* The wrath of God takes place during that entire seven years via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
* After the 7th bowl is poured out, Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom
* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire
* The wicked will be collected by the angels and will be killed by that double-edged sword which will proceed from His mouth
* Satan is seize and thrown into and sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years
* Millennial kingdom
* Satan is released at the end of the thousand years for one last rebelion
* Great white throne judgment
This is the correct chronological order of end-time events
1 Samuel 28:14 IT dose NOT say that it was Samuel there, IT says that HE perceived that it was Samuel , THIS MEANS that it was not Samuel, THIS means that Satan was TALKING to Suel, acting LIKE Samuel to DECEIVE HIM AND OTHERS THAT BELIEVE THAT you can TALK to the DEAD, ALSO, GOD KILLED HIM FOR TRYING TO TALK to the DEAD. GOD said HE did.
GOD bless as HE sees fit
GOD bless as HE sees fit