Not By Works

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Have you considered what is written in 2 Tim 2:15 since it was written he, he referred unto Abram, not Abraham.

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6

But seeing that you are going to argue that they are the same person, then truly "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. " Gal 3:29

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Genesis 15

1 Corinthians 3 describes the man who is saved, his foundation is Jesus Christ, and yet had no works. He suffered the loss of rewards.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

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This is nothing I would disagree with.

I have no idea why you would think that is an argument?

I have made this same point to you directly today.

The condition that varies is whether or not one believes or does not believe and the present tense does not change that. The one who believes is presently believing and the one who does not believe is not presently believing because for the latter, belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

Let me try one last time.



Peter, before man only had to say a few words opposed to do what was right in order to appear as a non-believer before man.

God still knew peter was His.

Man thought peter was not a follower of Jesus.


Abraham, an example of faith being paired with not ANY work... but to actually offer your SON to GOD would seem VERY justified before man to call himself a believer. His actions show how much he truly believed. Though God knew all along.



This is not about being saved.....


God saves us appart from works.


Please understand me.


I am tired of explaining the exact same thing over and over... if I am talking in a confusing way I am sorry john.... I don't mean to

I am trying to be clear and direct.

Now Let me explain my thumbs down. The TRUTH is NOT SAVED WITHOUT SUBSTANCE. WE ARE SAVED BEFORE YOU COULD DO ANY WORKS, PERIOD.



2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.


Romans 4:3-5 (NET)
3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.


Romans 5:1-10 (NASB)
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. { 🡬 NOTICE IT ALL HAPPENED ON THE CROSS.}


So we were SAVED before we were Born, coming out of our mother's womb. So were does our our decision come into Play?

God is ALL KNOWING, and that Means He knew every decision we would make before the BEGINNING OF TIME; when HE wrote our Names in the Lamb's book of life.


Revelation 3:5 (HCSB)
5 In the same way, the victor will be dressed in white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 17:8 (HCSB)
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present ⌊again⌋.


There are FOUR main things about GOD's TRUE NATURE that will help you to sort out TRUTH from Fiction.

GOD IS ALL KNOWING = Do not limit GOD's ALL KNOWING NATURE.

GOD KNOWS WHO ARE HIS = EVEN before we are Born.

GOD IS OMNIPRESENT = HE is Everywhere PRESENT, in every Cubic Inch of Space, BUT ALSO IN EVERY SECOND IF TIME as we know it.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GOD is the Creator of TIME as we know it, HE is outside of TIME; that is what ETERNAL means.

GOD Never Changes = So GOD Saves everyone in the O.T. and N.T. By GRACE through Faith. O.T. and N.T. Believe in the Messiah, in their > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hearts (human spirit).


Jeremiah 1:5 (ESV)
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”


2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”


Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him [Long before you can do your first work, so Obedience is Part of your Agape Love, that you do after you are SAVED.], you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.


1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.


So where does OUR OBEDIENCE comes into play? AFTER SALVATION.

That is an easy question to answer. I comes out of HIS AGAPE LOVE, that HE had the Holy Spirit pour into our hearts. YES, it spawns Out of the LOVE HE poured into our HEART or Human Spirit, Rom. 5:5; IT SAYS SO IN THESE TWO VERSES, and never has been part of Salvation.

John 14:15 (ESV)
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

That will keep is in one of the Primary Verb Tenses in the Greek, that we do not have in English. THEREFORE it implies a LIFESTYLE of Striving to KEEP His commandments. Greek has 6 Primary Verb Tenses, whereas we only have 3 Primary Verb Tenses.

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

That is AGAPE LOVE in ACTION. And NOTE: It is only not a burden, when it is done as an act of AGAPE LOVE.

I'm in agreement. I just believe James is talking about justification before God. His audience is tribulation Jews, thus the twelve tribes scattered abroad. In the tribulation, one must have faith and works to endure to the end. Here is an example of the tribulation saints.

Revelation 14:2 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Both are a must. This is not what we enjoy today. We do not have to keep the commandments nor the faith of Christ. We have it all already. What a blessing! But to the tribulation saint, one must endure to the end by keeping the commandments and the faith of Christ. There's a chance he could lose it and fall, thus not endure to the end and not gain the millennial kingdom.

So how did that apply to the Jewish people of that time, the time when he wrote the Epistle. The letter was written to them specifically, were they in danger of losing their salvation?

It could have certainly applied to them if they had received their Messiah. The 70th week of Daniel could have resumed and the Lord could have come. But, they rejected Him as a nation and God put Israel's program on hold. It resumes with the rapture of the Church which Paul speaks of. Why is James placed after Paul's epistles? After Hebrews? Because that's where it belongs dispensationally, after the body of Christ is no longer here. It fits the chronology of human history as it's played out.

I used to think James was a Christian epistle until I starting seeing the signs of the tribulation all throughout the book. Doctrines that could not be upon the body of Christ.

The book of James can be very frustrating unless you do one of two things:
1. Force it to conform to Christian doctrine through crafty reasoning and sly exposition. This was once me.
2. Understand its' intended Jewish audience and Jewish content for God's physical kingdom people, the nation of Israel.

So no matter what the situation, under the grace of Christ or during the tribulation, all Jews of all time have always had to keep the law to be and stay saved... is that what you believe?

What does the tribulation have to do with Abraham's faith being justified?

Nope. Under grace, Jew and Gentile is saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. This time ends with the catching up of the body of Christ, all things in Him. This is at the rapture.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

During the tribulation, God's attention is on the nation of Israel as they endure to the end, not for eternal salvation, but to be given their promised kingdom on earth. One must keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. This assures one's salvation into the kingdom.

For a tribulation saint, one is justified through his works as he endures through the tribulation to the end.

Notice in Genesis 15 Abraham was yet a Gentile, thus at this point, Abraham can be used as type of believer under grace. By the time we get to chapter 22 Abraham has been circumcised, thus he can be used as a type of Jew who is justified by works after the age of grace.

James was written to Jews that were alive right after Christ died, they were under grace. I'm more interesting in knowing why (bible verses) salvation requirements change for the Jews during the tribulation. Where does this come from (bible verses)?

What bible verse says that?

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:2 is clear, Abraham was not justified by his works. Do you not agree with that?

Yes, it was written to the whole nation of Israel preparing the whole nation for the tribulation. It was conditioned upon them accepting their Messiah. The difference is a physical salvation in the tribulation and an eternal salvation to the body of Christ.