Rom 9:22...an Oxymoron?

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crossnote

crossnote

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#1
Nov 24, 2012
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#1
Romans 9:22 NASB
[22] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This almost comes across as an oxymoron. On the one hand it sounds like God has certain vessels that He has prepared for destruction. On the other hand the phrase 'endured with much patience' sounds as if things aren't set in concrete after all.

Anyone care to crack this one?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#2
Jan 17, 2020
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#2
crossnote said:
Romans 9:22 NASB
[22] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This almost comes across as an oxymoron. On the one hand it sounds like God has certain vessels that He has prepared for destruction. On the other hand the phrase 'endured with much patience' sounds as if things aren't set in concrete after all.

Anyone care to crack this one?
Click to expand...
All unbelievers are fitted for destruction and God endures the world for the sake of the last believer that ever will be. Then he destroys all by fire according to Peter.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3
#3
In think it is a thought or idea being carried out. if we read the rest we see he contrasts this to making known his riches. On the vessels of mercy.

the vessels of wrath is the gentiles

the vessels of mercy is Israel.

But he also includes in that all believers. Jew or gentile.

and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#4
#4
He also carries this same message throughout chapter 10 - 11 He says almost the same in 11

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their [b]fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their [c]fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

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#5
Jan 17, 2020
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#5
eternally-gratefull said:
In think it is a thought or idea being carried out. if we read the rest we see he contrasts this to making known his riches. On the vessels of mercy.

the vessels of wrath is the gentiles

the vessels of mercy is Israel.

But he also includes in that all believers. Jew or gentile.

and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Click to expand...
Israel is both Jews and Gentiles under Christ. The unbelievers are both Jews and gentiles.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#6
#6
Dave-L said:
Israel is both Jews and Gentiles under Christ. The unbelievers are both Jews and gentiles.
Click to expand...
Nope

you need to read the passage again. Paul seperated jew and gentile

As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

here we see gentiles are going to also be called Gods people, and it was prophesied in the OT


27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

remnant/seed. Those terms are meaningless if it is not concerning one nation.

God is promising he will never let isreal as a nation and a people ease to exist. If he did not leave a remnant, they would completely lost forever.. like so many o ther nations did.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#7
Jan 17, 2020
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#7
eternally-gratefull said:
Nope

you need to read the passage again. Paul seperated jew and gentile

As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

here we see gentiles are going to also be called Gods people, and it was prophesied in the OT


27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

remnant/seed. Those terms are meaningless if it is not concerning one nation.

God is promising he will never let isreal as a nation and a people ease to exist. If he did not leave a remnant, they would completely lost forever.. like so many o ther nations did.
Click to expand...
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28 (KJV 1900)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#8
#8
Dave-L said:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28 (KJV 1900)
Click to expand...
We are not in galations we are in romans. Do you see the word galations in the OP?

We are not talking about salvation, we are talking about two groups of people
 
Kolistus

Kolistus

Well-known member
#9
Feb 3, 2020
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#9
Dave-L said:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28 (KJV 1900)
Click to expand...
Yet there are still Jews and Greeks and males and females.

This verse is talking about salvation.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#12
#12
Dave-L said:
You get a lopsided view without the whole bible.
Click to expand...
You get a lopsided view when you take one passage of scripture which is talking about one topic and try to mix it with another passage that has a completely different context.

I am sorry Crossnote. Seems your thread is off kilter. I will let it go. Some people do not wish to discuss actually passages of scripture
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

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#13
Jan 17, 2020
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#13
eternally-gratefull said:
You get a lopsided view when you take one passage of scripture which is talking about one topic and try to mix it with another passage that has a completely different context.

I am sorry Crossnote. Seems your thread is off kilter. I will let it go. Some people do not wish to discuss actually passages of scripture
Click to expand...
Scripture does not contradict unless you force an interpretation without considering the whole.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#14
#14
Dave-L said:
Scripture does not contradict unless you force an interpretation without considering the whole.
Click to expand...
Your right it does not

so when paul is speaking one one nation, a remnant, and pitting one group (isreal blinded and unblinded) in romans 11 as compared to gentiles in the same chapter

he must not be talking abaout spiritual Israe/ He must be talking about PHYSICAL.

thats WHY we still to the passage in question. And do not go elsewhere, I can not get context of romans 9 - 11 from galations.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#15
Jan 17, 2020
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#15
eternally-gratefull said:
Your right it does not

so when paul is speaking one one nation, a remnant, and pitting one group (isreal blinded and unblinded) in romans 11 as compared to gentiles in the same chapter

he must not be talking abaout spiritual Israe/ He must be talking about PHYSICAL.

thats WHY we still to the passage in question. And do not go elsewhere, I can not get context of romans 9 - 11 from galations.
Click to expand...
God removing physical unbelieving Israel from spiritual believing Israel under Christ.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#16
#16
Dave-L said:
God removing physical unbelieving Israel from spiritual believing Israel under Christ.
Click to expand...

Romans 9:22 NASB
[22] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This almost comes across as an oxymoron. On the one hand it sounds like God has certain vessels that He has prepared for destruction. On the other hand the phrase 'endured with much patience' sounds as if things aren't set in concrete after all.

Anyone care to crack this one?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#17
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#17
eternally-gratefull said:
Romans 9:22 NASB
[22] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This almost comes across as an oxymoron. On the one hand it sounds like God has certain vessels that He has prepared for destruction. On the other hand the phrase 'endured with much patience' sounds as if things aren't set in concrete after all.

Anyone care to crack this one?
Click to expand...
How about God saving only those whose names are written in the book of life? And his tolerating the rest until the last name is crossed off the list?
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#18
Jul 8, 2018
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#18
Dave-L said:
All unbelievers are fitted for destruction and God endures the world for the sake of the last believer that ever will be. Then he destroys all by fire according to Peter.
Click to expand...
I agree. After the last one of of the elect that God choose before the foundation of the world, Eph 1, has been regenerated, Eph 2, then Christ will come and gather all of his elect, Matt 24:31. And they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, 1 Cor 15:52.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#19
#19
Read the whole chapter for context. It not so hard to understand that way.
This is why it is necessary to avoid taking one or two verses out of their text and attempting to make them stand alone.
 
Kolistus

Kolistus

Well-known member
#20
Feb 3, 2020
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#20
Dave-L said:
Scripture does not contradict unless you force an interpretation without considering the whole.
Click to expand...
By trying to harmonize it all together and mush it all into one, you have to water down many verses and end up making a mess of the Bible.

Things that are different are not the same. Church is Church, Israel is Israel.

When things contradict just look at who is being spoken to and when and by who.
 
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