Not By Works

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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You ask "
Can you really determine the salvation of another by observing their good works?"


My answer would be a simple "no"


which i have said in the last couple pages that "works" can be no more than "evidence" before man and proof for no one....


A man can say he will show his faith by his works till hes blue in the face and built a whole bridge for orphans, its still not proof lol... but that doesnt take away from the fact that we in Christ who are saved already appart from works

ought to not waste our time and let His love shine as a demonstration of His power in us


...dont let anyone call our family unloving with good reason
So, how and why should we justify ourselves before men? What does that mean?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
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You are conflating issues and missed the whole point.🤦‍♂️


No one, will be justified before God by ANYTHING appart from the righteousness of Christ
So says Paul to the body of Christ. Who’s the audience of James? The twelve tribes of Israel? Not saved Jews.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
So says Paul to the body of Christ. Who’s the audience of James? The twelve tribes of Israel? Not saved Jews.
Face it

no one could ever be saved by law. If they could Christ died in vein

You have been misled
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,430
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So, how and why should we justify ourselves before men? What does that mean?
That means to be justified TO men...🤦‍♂️


If I am rich and turned away someone in need when I could have helped without any difficulty, before YOU and THEM .... there is no justification ....


If you see me doing my best to help others, never once being a bad witness or unloving before you I am justified

but before God that might as well be dirty rags because i have sinned



a judge will not let a murderer go because hes nice now......

though everyone around him trust him and may say he changed and hes a new guy


Jesus not only paid the price for our sin

He also BESTOWS His righteousness to us so, that come judgement we are clothed in white and spotless...


none of our actions keep this nor aid it this.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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So says Paul to the body of Christ. Who’s the audience of James? The twelve tribes of Israel? Not saved Jews.
FALSE.......

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
If you see me doing my best to help others, never once being a bad witness or unloving before you I am justified
Justified as a believer? There are plenty who do good works in “Jesus name” but are lost. Works never justify us before God or man.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
In the tribulation a man must keep the faith and live by works. This is the audience of James.
Wrong

again,

if this is true Christ died in being

You have people saving themselves that’s not possible
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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That means to be justified TO men...🤦‍♂️


If I am rich and turned away someone in need when I could have helped without any difficulty, before YOU and THEM .... there is no justification ....


If you see me doing my best to help others, never once being a bad witness or unloving before you I am justified

but before God that might as well be dirty rags because i have sinned



a judge will not let a murderer go because hes nice now......

though everyone around him trust him and may say he changed and hes a new guy


Jesus not only paid the price for our sin

He also BESTOWS His righteousness to us so, that come judgement we are clothed in white and spotless...


none of our actions keep this nor aid it this.....
You are not answering his question.

Why is there even a need for anyone to be justified before man?

What does justified mean to you?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
Wrong

again,

if this is true Christ died in being

You have people saving themselves that’s not possible
Tribulation saints, same audience James is speaking to.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
You are not answering his question.

Why is there even a need for anyone to be justified before man?

What does justified mean to you?
What does the word "justified" in James, mean it takes it meaning from the context correct?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Tribulation saints, same audience James is speaking to.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Whatever dude

james said if a person has one work their Claimed faith is real

if they have no (zero) work their faith is dead and unable to saved

teue faith produces works, if one has no works their faith was dead.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
Whatever dude

james said if a person has one work their Claimed faith is real

if they have no (zero) work their faith is dead and unable to saved

teue faith produces works, if one has no works their faith was dead.
We are never justified in the eyes of man. We are not justified by works when you do or don’t do anything. We were justified, in the past, the moment we received Jesus Christ as Savior.

Our faith doesn’t need to be made perfect. It already is because it’s the faith of Jesus Christ.

Abraham was not justified before men. No one was around when Abraham offered up Isaac. Abraham’s declaration of righteousness was not justified until seven chapters later, about ten years.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
We are never justified in the eyes of man. We are not justified by works when you do or don’t do anything. We were justified, in the past, the moment we received Jesus Christ as Savior.

Our faith doesn’t need to be made perfect. It already is because it’s the faith of Jesus Christ.

Abraham was not justified before men. No one was around when Abraham offered up Isaac. Abraham’s declaration of righteousness was not justified until seven chapters later, about ten years.
Before God no work justifies our faith justifies.
Before man our faith is justified by our works.

We are absolutely justified in the eyes of man.. what it means is that our faith internal is demonstrated outwardly so that those around us see our faith by our works.....gives evidence.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,271
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Whatever dude

james said if a person has one work their Claimed faith is real

if they have no (zero) work their faith is dead and unable to saved

teue faith produces works, if one has no works their faith was dead.
What kind of work is James speaking of?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
Before God no work justifies our faith justifies.
Before man our faith is justified by our works.

We are absolutely justified in the eyes of man.. what it means is that our faith internal is demonstrated outwardly so that those around us see our faith by our works.....gives evidence.
Lost people can do good works, even in God’s name. Works do not justify. “Man, he’s a Christian because he did this...”. Nope!

Abraham was the example given by James and yet, his justification was before God not man.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,430
2,208
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Justified as a believer? There are plenty who do good works in “Jesus name” but are lost. Works never justify us before God or man.
I have said the same thing 3 times recently. Once to you and twice before when people act as if we need "proof" to be saved when in fact .... I'll just quote myself

v
Not before God.

Works can only show as EVIDENCE (not proof) before MAN.

Our justification has ZERO to do with works of righteousness which we do.



v


1347. dikaiósis
Strong's Concordance
dikaiósis: the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal​
Original Word: δικαίωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dikaiósis
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah'-yo-sis)
Definition: the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
Usage: acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.

________

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.



Abraham BELIEVED and THAT is why God imputed righteousness to Him, those works DID NOT help justify Him before GOD

V



For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.




_________


Don't conflate the rebuke of a partial favor that can show love in word but not deed with how to be justified before God....



How many works are you suggesting God needs to see added to the blood of Christ to justify you?

A daily offering a quota or a set number?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Lost people can do good works, even in God’s name. Works do not justify. “Man, he’s a Christian because he did this...”. Nope!

Abraham was the example given by James and yet, his justification was before God not man.
You do not understand the word "justify" in context of how James is using.it...sorry but you are wrong completely.

James clearly states "he was called a friend of God" by whom ....by humans... read and understand the thesis of the book.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,430
2,208
113
What kind of work is James speaking of?
The letter of james was specifically addressing a form of partial treatment lacking in love then went on to explain how worthless and dead (without function) this sort of "faith"....

Then goes on to explain how this can effect our witness (even though seen as RIGHTEOUS through faith alone) towards the end of 2 and in 3 and our ability to function as the body of Christ.

All of us have a use in the body and what we do and say ought to be directed by Him in love....


people often take 3 or 4 cherry picked words to twist the meaning of whats being said to say "if you dont work you have no saving faith, and works help justify you as righteous come judgment"


though that is not whats being said in context