What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

All my favorite teachers are pre-trib as well, they have many good points. My favorite at the moment is the whole ancient Jewish betrothal and marriage scenario.
A covenant is made between bride and groom. Groom goes to prepare a place for bride at the family farm. The father of the groom is the only one who knows when the groom will go to retrieve his bride. The groom surprises bride, whisks her away back to father's house to consummate. Then a seven day feast.

Doesn’t make much sense for the bride analogy to be used in scripture if it’s only partly correct.

Ive heard said, you don’t beat up your fiancé then marry her and take her back to Dad’s for dinner. Haha

Can you hear the silence...?

people go on about this jewish family scenario. where is this to be found? its no where in the bible its just tradition that no one ever links source to or verifies.

Years ago, I had come across a fairly decent article "cautioning" about SOME parts of the "jewish wedding tradition" model, and when reading through the cautions I agreed with some because people TEND to use some parts of the Scripture (on this) incorrectly... like using the "10 Virgins" parable to be speaking of "the WEDDING" itself, rather than "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" that it IS about, in that passage ("the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" being the earthly MK age and their entrance into that), for example.

There ARE things in the Scripture about this Subject, but it's important to ascertain these via Scripture (and not just completely get carried away with things outside of it, if they fail to line up).

Just a brief caution.

Make certain it indeed lines up with what Scripture itself reveals (and not based merely on "Jewish tradition").


[doubt I could even find that article now. it's been years ago...]


Do keep in mind that Lk12:36-37,40,42-44 does say, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." …THEN the meal

interesting. do you believe that places in luke 12 is about the rapture or second coming? you have to say rapture to be pre-tribber because st.peter says :

Luk 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

if you say its the rapture ok i take your point. it matches the wedding first then meal on earth

I believe that "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (v.36) [THEN the meal], that this means He is returning at that point as an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom" (just like all of the other related passages show, that are speaking of the feast/supper [ALL "2nd Coming to the earth" passages; i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom]).



Additionally, I've posted before about the "lamps lit" [v.35] and how THAT pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" time period (aka the 7-yr trib yrs that FOLLOW "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"/"THE Departure"), that are used for/in the "NIGHT WATCHES"


[this passage also parallels OTHER "2nd Coming to the earth" passages which I've pointed out before]

Hello Melach!

Jesus was a Jew and the gathering of the church is modeled after the Jewish marriage process, from betrothal to the actual marriage. Here is a description of it:

=========================================

(part 1)

1. The selection of the bride.

The bride was usually chosen by the father of the bridegroom. The father would send his trusted servant, known as the agent of the father, to search out the bride. Read Gen 24. In this chapter, Abraham (a type of God the Father) wishes to secure a bride for Isaac (a type of Messiah) and send his servant Eliezer (a type of the Holy Spirit) to do this task. It is the role of the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin and lead them to God. (John 16:7-8) Just as the bride was usually chosen by the father of the bridegroom, so the believers in the Messiah are chosen by God. (John 15:16) The bridegroom chose the bride and lavished his love upon her and she returned his love. This can be seen in Eph 5:25. Rebekah consented to marry Isaac even before she ever met him. Today, the believers in the Messiah consent to become the bride of Christ even though we have never seen Him. (1Pet 1:8)

2. A bride price was established.

A price would have to be paid for the bride. Jesus, being our bridegroom paid a very high price for His bride, the body of believers. The price He paid was His life. (1Cor 6:20)

3. The bride and groom are betrothed to each other.

Betrothal is the first of two steps in the marriage process. Betrothal legally binds the bride and the groom together in a marriage contract, except they do not physically live together. Whenever you accept the Lord into your heart and life, you become betrothed to Him while living on earth.

4. A written document is drawn up.

This contract states the bride price, the promises of the groom, and the rights of the bride. The groom promises to work for her, to honor, support, and maintain her in truth, to provide food, clothing, and necessities, and to live together with her as husband and wife. This contract was the unalienable right of the bride. It must be executed and signed prior to the wedding ceremony. The Bible is the believers contract. All the promises that God provided for the believers in Christ are legally ours. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

5. The bride must give her consent.

The personal application to those who desire the Lord to come into their hearts and lives is to accept his invitation to do so by faith. As His bride, we are saying ‘I do”.

6. Gifts were given to the bride and a cup called the cup of the covenant was shared between the bride and the groom.

The rite of the betrothal is completed when the groom gives something of value to the bride and she accepts it. Today, the gift that is given is usually a ring. When the groom places the ring on the bride’s finger, the rite of betrothal is completed. This completed rite is known in Hebrew as kiddushin, which means “sanctification.” The gifts to the bride are symbols of love, commitment, and loyalty. The gift God gives to those who accept Jesus is the Holy Spirit. When Jesus ascended to Heaven, He gave us gifts, including righteousness, eternal life, grace, faith, and other spiritual gifts. In addition, at this time the cup of the covenant was shared and sealed between the bride and the groom with the drinking of wine. In doing so, the couple drinks from a common cup. The cup is first given to the groom to sip, and then is given to the bride. This cup, known as the cup of the covenant, is spoken of in Jer 31:31-33, and in Luke 20, 22.

(Continued)

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(Part 2)

7. The bride had a water immersion, which is a ritual of cleansing.

This indicates a separation from a former way to a new way of life. In the case of marriage, it indicates leaving an old life for a new life with your spouse. Jesus said, in John 3:1-7, that we must be born anew to enter into the Kingdom of God. Believers are to be immersed in the name of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the immerser of God. (Luke3: 16, Acts 1:5, 11:15-16)

8. The bridegroom departed, going back to his father’s house to prepare the bridal chamber.
[John 14:2] In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

At this point, the bridegroom leaves for his father’s house to prepare the bridal chamber for his bride. It was understood to be the man’s duty to go away to be with his father, build a house, and prepare for the eventual wedding. Before he goes, though, he will make a statement to the bride, “I go to prepare a place for you; if I go, I will return again unto you.”

9. The bride was consecrated and set apart for a period of time while the bridegroom was away building the house.
[Rev 21:2] And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Before the bridegroom could go and get the bride, the groom’s father had to be satisfied that the son had made every preparation.

[Mat 24:36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Only then could he give permission to the son to go and get the bride. In other words, while the bridegroom was working on the bridal chamber, it was the father who “okayed” the final bridal chamber.

10. The bridegroom did not know when his father would declare the bridal chamber fit and send him to go get his bride. Note the parallels:
[Mark 13:32] “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. [Mark 13:33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come. [Mark 13:34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. [Mark 13:35] Watch therefore–for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning– [Mark 13:36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. [Mark 13:37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch.”

Meanwhile, the bride was to wait eagerly for the return of the bridegroom. In the mind of the bride, the bridegroom could come at any time, even in the middle of the night or at midnight. Therefore, she had to be ready at all times. Jesus referred to this in the same verses in Mark above, and in Mat 25:1-13.

11. The bridegroom would return with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes” and the sound of the ram’s horn would be blown.

The time of the return of the bridegroom was usually at midnight. When the bridegroom did come, he came with a shout (Mat 25:6) and with the blowing of a trumpet (1Thess 4:16-17; Rev 4:1). The marriage between the bride and the groom would take place under a wedding canopy. Since Heaven is a type of canopy, we can see that when Jesus gives a shout for His bride, accompanied by the blowing of a trumpet, the marriage between Christ and his bride will take place in Heaven.

The marriage ceremony will have a sacred procession. For this reason, the bridegroom (Jesus) will be led to the canopy first. When the bridegroom approaches the canopy, the cantor chants, “Blessed is he who comes.” This expression means “welcome.” Jesus said that He would not return for His bride until these words were said. The groom is greeted like a king under the canopy. During this time Jesus, the bridegroom, will be crowned King under the canopy, which is Heaven.

The bride and groom will go to the wedding chamber, where the marriage will be consummated. They will stay in that wedding chamber for seven days, or a week. At the end of the seven days, the bride and groom will come out from the wedding chamber. This can be seen in Joel 2:16. The word week in Hebrew is shavuah. It means a “seven”. It can mean seven days or seven years. An example of the Hebrew word shavuah for week meaning seven years can be found in Dan 9:24,27.

From this we can see that the believers (bride) in the Messiah (bridegroom) will be with the Messiah in Heaven for His wedding while the earth will be experiencing the seven-year tribulation period. Also in the biblical wedding service that God gave, after you are married, you have a honeymoon.

The honeymoon lasts a week, having the same meaning as the above…. Seven-days or seven-years. So this also can refer to Heaven where the previously caught up believers have been enjoying a seven-year honeymoon with the Lord while the earth is experiencing the tribulation.

12. Finally, there would be a marriage supper for all the guests invited by the father of the bride.

The bride and the groom would be in the wedding chamber for seven days. When the bride and the groom initially went into the wedding chamber, the friend of the bridegroom stood outside the door. All the assembled guests of the wedding gathered outside, waiting for the friend of the bridegroom to announce the consummation of the marriage, which was relayed to him by the groom. John referred to this in John 3:29. At this signal, great rejoicing broke forth.

The marriage was consummated on the first night. The bloodstained linen from this night was preserved. It was proof of the bride’s virginity. (Deut 22:13-21) On the wedding day, the bridegroom is seen as a king and the bride as a queen. During the consummation of the marriage, the bridegroom (Jesus) will be crowned King over all the earth and the bride (believers in Christ) will live with Him and rule with Him forever.

Jesus will be returning with His bride and we will rule and reign with Him physically during the Millennium (Rev 20:4)

my point was st.peter assumes this is talking about him too, who is a beleiver in Jesus and part of church soon. but you know Jesus already told st.peter he would die, so no imminent return for him

@Ahwatukee


Any thoughts or explanation from any pretribbers - or anyone else...?


(Just wondering if anyone else has spent any time thinking about this.)

The "rapture" (harpazo) is found 13 times in the Bible. Paul uses it thrice. Here is the meaning of the word and where it is used. Then I will comment below.

Strong's #726: harpazo (pronounced har-pad'-zo)

from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

harpazō

1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one' s self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away

Part of Speech: verb

Relation: from a derivative of G138

Citing in TDNT: 1:472, 80

Usage:
This word is used 13 times:

Matthew 11:12: "suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matthew 13:19: "the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart."
John 6:15: "they would come and take him by force, to make him"
John 10:12: "and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth them"
John 10:28: "they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them"
John 10:29: "and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
Acts 8:39: "water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch"
Acts 23:10: "the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them,"
2 Corinthians 12:2: "I cannot tell: God knoweth such a one caught up to the third heaven"
2 Corinthians 12:4: "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words,"
1 Thessalonians 4:17: "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in clouds to meet the Lord in the air"
Jude 1:23: "save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating"
Revelation 12:5: "and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne"

In Paul's case, he uses harpazo in each instance as a "catching away to heaven" (spiritual realm). In the 2 Cor 12 instances, Paul, most likely speaking of himself, had a near death experience (NDE). His NDE gave him a glimpse of the afterlife. We know that Stephen had a similar experience as he was dying. Both these occasions required physical death or near death. While death is not required as in the cases or Enoch and Elijah, death is the usual event that precedes one's trip to heaven. Rapture proponents argue that there will be a massive rapture of all living Christians at the same time in our future thus living just the damned on earth. But is that what Paul was teaching? To be continued...

Here's my take on the "rapture" as a preterist. I'm not saying I speak for all preterists on the subject and I acknowledge that this is a very difficult topic. Even Peter said that Paul's teachings were at times, difficult to understand, even for him (2 Pet 3:15-16). I think we must take the rapture passage as a whole.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

This verse is the topic in focus. Paul does not want the living Thessalonian believers to be ignorant about those who have fallen asleep, in other words, those in Hades awaiting resurrection. The other thing Paul wanted to do is comfort them by telling them not to have sorrow like others who have no hope. In the next three verses, which I will post, Paul discusses the resurrection. We know of two resurrections, one for the just who go to heaven, one for the unjust, who don't go to heaven.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

In the above we have the resurrection of the just discussed. Those mentioned in the above 3 verses are dead sleeping (resting) in Hades awaiting the resurrection. Then we see they are resurrected. We are told that those who are still alive and remaining at this time will NOT be with the Lord first, nor will they prevent the resurrection.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I believe that those alive mentioned above, are not being caught up as living beings and transformed into spiritual beings leaving the world Christian-less. Rather, I think Paul (as poorly worded as it is) is telling us that after the resurrection, when a believer dies, he/she is then caught up to the third heaven just as Paul was. He is again comforting them with this promise as he was doing at the start of this passage in v 13.

Keep in mind, there are no other passages where a massive group of living beings is being translated alive and snatched off the planet. Jesus doesn't teach this and neither do any of the other disciples.

I "get" what you are saying, but...

Consider the following:

I think there is often a misunderstanding of what people mean by the use of the term "imminence"... It is not intended to convey that "it will happen soon," but that NO SIGNS precede it and point toward it (all biblically-defined "signs" follow after our Rapture and lead up to/point toward His Second Coming to the earth). That's what is meant by that term when scholars use it, though many people tend to blur it together with the idea of "soon/immediately" (which is not what they mean by the term)...

Along those same lines (only slightly different track), I'm continually pointing out "1Th5:2-3" (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more birth pangs [plural] that will follow on from that INITIAL one [parallel Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception]/Rev6:2/2Th2:9a,8a,3b/Dan9:27a(26b)]<--That INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is said to "come upon them SUDDENLY" like the INITIAL "birth PANG" upon a woman with child/in labor (bearing in mind that the SEALS are equivalent to "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" that Jesus spoke of; and that many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" FOLLOW ON from that INITIAL one; this [the INITIAL one] is the START of the 7-yr period [which FOLLOWS "our Rapture/THE Departure"];

By CONTRAST, there are MANY "signs" and events which "MUST" lead up to His "RETURN" to the earth, and Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 uses that "must G1163 [or, 'is CERTAIN to [G3195]']" words when speaking of all of the "FUTURE" aspects of that Book [that lead up to His 2nd Coming to the earth Rev19], like in 1:1's phrase "things which MUST [G1163 - dei] come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (<--all of which FOLLOW "our Rapture/THE Departure"), etc.


[a couple of quotes]

Gerald B Stanton -
"It must constantly be kept in mind throughout this discussion that imminent does not mean immediate [...]"

Thomas Ice -
"Since it is signless there are no indicators when it will occur [...]. I would argue that nothing MUST take place before our Lord’s return in the clouds at the rapture must occur, but, on the other hand, hundreds of events must take place before the second coming of Jesus to planet earth can occur. [...] Pretribulationists believe that there are many events scheduled to occur before Christ’s return to the earth and they will take place before His advent, during the tribulation, but after the rapture.
"The posttribulationist wrongly insists that there is but a single event in the future, which is preceded by signs."

[bold, underline and CAPS mine]




____________

So, pre-tribbers are pointing out that all biblically-defined "signs" (and "warnings" etc) are what FOLLOW our Rapture and are that which are pointing toward His Second Coming to the earth [Rev19] (for there are none that PRECEDE our Rapture, nor MUST precede it; note: this does not mean we are to be wholly ignorant of it [not saying it impacts our eternal destiny if we ARE ignorant of it, mind you! ], for I do believe Scripture has much more to say about it than we commonly realize, but that is a different train of thought... [not covered by the idea of "imminence" we are presently discussing]).


Hope that at least makes some sense, and helps you understand what is meant by "imminent" when ppl use that term (basically, that no biblically-defined "SIGNS" PRECEDE our Rapture and point toward it... they ALL FOLLOW it and lead up to [and point toward/at] His Second Coming to the earth)

Paul doesn't just use the ONE WORD (we commonly think of) in that ONE verse, to speak of the event we call "our Rapture"... He uses a VARIETY of words and phrases, and speaks of it something like 10 times, in his two Thessalonians epistles.

I have.

Just a little bit out of gas, on typing, of late.


I think it's kind of too narrow a thought to think of it like "moving into our mansion" (when considering the word "PLACE" in John 14:2 [for example, see its usage in Jn11:48]); and so, when I say we will be "RETURNING *WITH [G4862]* Him" when HE "RETURNS" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]"--the inauguration of the MK age), I don't believe this means *we* must reside there. It's the "kick-off festivities" so to speak, but no one says it has to be the permanent residence (see verses like Rev21:23-26, for example). I've mentioned in past posts, "the glory of God in two realms/spheres".

I've also mentioned that I believe "the 24 elders" (on "24 thrones" and wearing "stephanon/crowns" of gold) are representative of "the Church which is His body" (present in Heaven BEFORE the opening of the FIRST SEAL)… and we are told that "we shall judge angels" (etc)... so that "PLACE" (here, in my understanding) means more than simply a "location" (such as the word "G5561 chora" would mean), like the idea of "moving into our mansion" idea conveys.

Hope that makes sense.


[note: the 12 were told they will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (that is, on the earth)]

Good day Watermark,

The short version of imminent is that it is:

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On the horizon

Looming

Always about to take place

In the workings

At hand

Near

Impending

Brewing

Approaching

In store

In the pipeline

Anticipated

Expected
===================================

2,000 years and counting...in your mind.

POT<>KETTLE.

Big time

The gt kicks off with the 4 horsemen.

Millions / billions of christians beheaded.

Then the other 3 horsemen apocalypse.

Nope,the whole thing is great tribulation.

Only pretrib rapture fits.

None of the others do