Free Will compatible with Sovereignty
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Well this is a rather serious issue. The Bible says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world -- took away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Five Point Calvinism denies this, which means it is another Gospel.
When an evangelist preaches the Gospel, he must be able to tell each and every hearer that Christ died for their sins. Not just a select few in that crowd. And if he cannot say this wholeheartedly, then he is undermining the Gospel.
When an evangelist preaches the Gospel, he must be able to tell each and every hearer that Christ died for their sins. Not just a select few in that crowd. And if he cannot say this wholeheartedly, then he is undermining the Gospel.
Well if you get to say "I chose Him", the you take the credit for the choice, that is taking glory for yourself. Please don't think I'm trying to be offensive here, but this is simple logic. When you say "I" you take what follows on yourself, it was "He" that saved you, and He gets all glory. I also understand what you mean, and I do not disagree that you made that choice as we humans see it, all I'm trying to share it that it goes so much deeper, let me say it like this why did you chose Him? Did He draw you into the choice? Do you give Him all glory for "your choice". What I'm saying is that without Him you could not have chose Him, and He gets ALL glory for "our decision".
I just want to testify a little here to try to clarify why I'm even making a conversation about this. When God saved me I was not "choosing Him", I thought I already knew what being a Christian meant, and it was not helping my life at that time. When life brought me to my knees is wasn't a "choice" I made, it was just me coming to the end of "my way", this was when God granted me repentance and when I hit my knees I would have told you I didn't even believe that was real. I believe God blessed me with this for this very reason. I do understand what you're saying and do agree that a choice was made, my only sticking point is where the credit for that choice goes, to you? Or to Him? Just food for thought.
I just want to testify a little here to try to clarify why I'm even making a conversation about this. When God saved me I was not "choosing Him", I thought I already knew what being a Christian meant, and it was not helping my life at that time. When life brought me to my knees is wasn't a "choice" I made, it was just me coming to the end of "my way", this was when God granted me repentance and when I hit my knees I would have told you I didn't even believe that was real. I believe God blessed me with this for this very reason. I do understand what you're saying and do agree that a choice was made, my only sticking point is where the credit for that choice goes, to you? Or to Him? Just food for thought.
L
Article 2.
Free Will.
STATUS CONTROVERSIAE.
The Principal Question in This Controversy.
1] Since the will of man is found in four unlike states, namely: 1. before the Fall; 2. since the Fall; 3. after regeneration; 4. after the resurrection of the body, the chief question is only concerning the will and ability of man in the second state, namely, what powers in spiritual things he has of himself after the fall of our first parents and before regeneration, and whether he is able by his own powers, prior to and before his regeneration by God's Spirit, to dispose and prepare himself for God's grace, and to accept [and apprehend], or not, the grace offered through the Holy Ghost in the Word and holy [divinely instituted] Sacraments.
Affirmative Theses.
The Pure Doctrine concerning This Article, according to God's Word.
2] 1. Concerning this subject, our doctrine, faith, and confession is, that in spiritual things the understanding and reason of man are [altogether] blind, and by their own powers understand nothing, as it is written 1 Cor. 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them when he is examined concerning spiritual things.
3] 2. Likewise we believe, teach, and confess that the unregenerate will of man is not only turned away from God, but also has become an enemy of God, so that it only has an inclination and desire for that which is evil and contrary to God, as it is written Gen. 8:21: The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Also Rom. 8:7: The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither, indeed, can be. Yea, as little as a dead body can quicken itself to bodily, earthly life, so little can man, who by sin is spiritually dead, raise himself to spiritual life, as it is written Eph. 2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ; 2 Cor. 3:5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything good as of ourselves, but that we are sufficient is of God.
4] 3. God the Holy Ghost, however, does not effect conversion without means, but uses for this purpose the preaching and hearing of God's Word, as it is written Rom. 1:16: The Gospel is the power of God 5] unto salvation to every one that believeth. Also Rom. 10:17: Faith cometh by hearing of the Word of God. And it is God's will that His Word should be heard, and that man's ears should not be closed. Ps. 95:8. With this Word the Holy Ghost is present, and opens hearts, so that they, as Lydia in Acts 16:14, are attentive to it, and are thus converted alone through the grace and power of the Holy Ghost, whose 6] work alone the conversion of man is. For without His grace, and if He do not grant the increase, our willing and running, our planting, sowing, and watering, all are nothing, as Christ says John 15:5: Without Me ye can do nothing. With these brief words He denies to the free will its powers, and ascribes everything to God's grace, in order that no one may boast before God. 1 Cor. 1:29; 2 Cor. 12:5; Jer. 9:23.
Negative Theses.
Contrary False Doctrine.
7] Accordingly, we reject and condemn all the following errors as contrary to the standard of God's Word:
8] 1. The delirium [insane dogma] of philosophers who are called Stoics, as also of the Manicheans, who taught that everything that happens must so happen, and cannot happen otherwise, and that everything that man does, even in outward things, he does by compulsion, and that he is coerced to evil works and deeds, as inchastity, robbery, murder, theft, and the like.
9] 2. We reject also the error of the gross Pelagians, who taught that man by his own powers, without the grace of the Holy Ghost, can turn himself to God, believe the Gospel, be obedient from the heart to God's Law, and thus merit the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
10] 3. We reject also the error of the Semi-Pelagians, who teach that man by his own powers can make a beginning of his conversion, but without the grace of the Holy Ghost cannot complete it.
11] 4. Also, when it is taught that, although man by his free will before regeneration is too weak to make a beginning, and by his own powers to turn himself to God, and from the heart to be obedient to God, yet, if the Holy Ghost by the preaching of the Word has made a beginning, and therein offered His grace, then the will of man from its own natural powers can add something, though little and feebly, to this end, can help and cooperate, qualify and prepare itself for grace, and embrace and accept it, and believe the Gospel.
12] 5. Also, that man, after he has been born again, can perfectly observe and completely fulfil God's Law, and that this fulfilling is our righteousness before God, by which we merit eternal life.
13] 6. Also, we reject and condemn the error of the Enthusiasts, who imagine that God without means, without the hearing of God's Word, also without the use of the holy Sacraments, draws men to Himself, and enlightens, justifies, and saves them. (Enthusiasts we call those who expect the heavenly illumination of the Spirit [celestial revelations] without the preaching of God's Word.)
14] 7. Also, that in conversion and regeneration God entirely exterminates the substance and essence of the old Adam, and especially the rational soul, and in conversion and regeneration creates a new essence of the soul out of nothing.
15] 8. Also, when the following expressions are employed without explanation, namely, that the will of man before, in, and after conversion resists the Holy Ghost, and that the Holy Ghost is given to those who resist Him intentionally and persistently; for, as Augustine says, in conversion God makes willing persons out of the unwilling and dwells in the willing.
16] As to the expressions of ancient and modern teachers of the Church, when it is said: Deus trahit, sed volentem trahit, i. e., God draws, but He draws the willing; likewise, Hominis voluntas in conversione non est otiosa, sed agit aliquid, i. e., In conversion the will of man is not idle, but also effects something, we maintain that, inasmuch as these expressions have been introduced for confirming [the false opinion concerning] the powers of the natural free will in man's conversion, against the doctrine of God's grace, they do not conform to the form of sound doctrine, and therefore, when we speak of conversion to God, justly ought to be avoided.
17] But, on the other hand, it is correctly said that in conversion God, through the drawing of the Holy Ghost, makes out of stubborn and unwilling men willing ones, and that after such conversion in the daily exercise of repentance the regenerate will of man is not idle, but also cooperates in all the works of the Holy Ghost, which He performs through us.
18] 9. Also what Dr. Luther has written, namely, that man's will in his conversion is pure passive, that is, that it does nothing whatever, is to be understood respectu divinae gratiae in accendendis novis motibus, that is, when God's Spirit, through the Word heard or the use of the holy Sacraments, lays hold upon man's will, and works [in man] the new birth and conversion. For when [after] the Holy Ghost has wrought and accomplished this, and man's will has been changed and renewed by His divine power and working alone, then the new will of man is an instrument and organ of God the Holy Ghost, so that he not only accepts grace, but also cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the works which follow.
19] Therefore, before the conversion of man there are only two efficient causes, namely, the Holy Ghost and the Word of God, as the instrument of the Holy Ghost, by which He works conversion. This Word man is [indeed] to hear; however, it is not by his own powers, but only through the grace and working of the Holy Ghost that he can yield faith to it and accept it.
Free Will.
STATUS CONTROVERSIAE.
The Principal Question in This Controversy.
1] Since the will of man is found in four unlike states, namely: 1. before the Fall; 2. since the Fall; 3. after regeneration; 4. after the resurrection of the body, the chief question is only concerning the will and ability of man in the second state, namely, what powers in spiritual things he has of himself after the fall of our first parents and before regeneration, and whether he is able by his own powers, prior to and before his regeneration by God's Spirit, to dispose and prepare himself for God's grace, and to accept [and apprehend], or not, the grace offered through the Holy Ghost in the Word and holy [divinely instituted] Sacraments.
Affirmative Theses.
The Pure Doctrine concerning This Article, according to God's Word.
2] 1. Concerning this subject, our doctrine, faith, and confession is, that in spiritual things the understanding and reason of man are [altogether] blind, and by their own powers understand nothing, as it is written 1 Cor. 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them when he is examined concerning spiritual things.
3] 2. Likewise we believe, teach, and confess that the unregenerate will of man is not only turned away from God, but also has become an enemy of God, so that it only has an inclination and desire for that which is evil and contrary to God, as it is written Gen. 8:21: The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Also Rom. 8:7: The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither, indeed, can be. Yea, as little as a dead body can quicken itself to bodily, earthly life, so little can man, who by sin is spiritually dead, raise himself to spiritual life, as it is written Eph. 2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ; 2 Cor. 3:5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything good as of ourselves, but that we are sufficient is of God.
4] 3. God the Holy Ghost, however, does not effect conversion without means, but uses for this purpose the preaching and hearing of God's Word, as it is written Rom. 1:16: The Gospel is the power of God 5] unto salvation to every one that believeth. Also Rom. 10:17: Faith cometh by hearing of the Word of God. And it is God's will that His Word should be heard, and that man's ears should not be closed. Ps. 95:8. With this Word the Holy Ghost is present, and opens hearts, so that they, as Lydia in Acts 16:14, are attentive to it, and are thus converted alone through the grace and power of the Holy Ghost, whose 6] work alone the conversion of man is. For without His grace, and if He do not grant the increase, our willing and running, our planting, sowing, and watering, all are nothing, as Christ says John 15:5: Without Me ye can do nothing. With these brief words He denies to the free will its powers, and ascribes everything to God's grace, in order that no one may boast before God. 1 Cor. 1:29; 2 Cor. 12:5; Jer. 9:23.
Negative Theses.
Contrary False Doctrine.
7] Accordingly, we reject and condemn all the following errors as contrary to the standard of God's Word:
8] 1. The delirium [insane dogma] of philosophers who are called Stoics, as also of the Manicheans, who taught that everything that happens must so happen, and cannot happen otherwise, and that everything that man does, even in outward things, he does by compulsion, and that he is coerced to evil works and deeds, as inchastity, robbery, murder, theft, and the like.
9] 2. We reject also the error of the gross Pelagians, who taught that man by his own powers, without the grace of the Holy Ghost, can turn himself to God, believe the Gospel, be obedient from the heart to God's Law, and thus merit the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
10] 3. We reject also the error of the Semi-Pelagians, who teach that man by his own powers can make a beginning of his conversion, but without the grace of the Holy Ghost cannot complete it.
11] 4. Also, when it is taught that, although man by his free will before regeneration is too weak to make a beginning, and by his own powers to turn himself to God, and from the heart to be obedient to God, yet, if the Holy Ghost by the preaching of the Word has made a beginning, and therein offered His grace, then the will of man from its own natural powers can add something, though little and feebly, to this end, can help and cooperate, qualify and prepare itself for grace, and embrace and accept it, and believe the Gospel.
12] 5. Also, that man, after he has been born again, can perfectly observe and completely fulfil God's Law, and that this fulfilling is our righteousness before God, by which we merit eternal life.
13] 6. Also, we reject and condemn the error of the Enthusiasts, who imagine that God without means, without the hearing of God's Word, also without the use of the holy Sacraments, draws men to Himself, and enlightens, justifies, and saves them. (Enthusiasts we call those who expect the heavenly illumination of the Spirit [celestial revelations] without the preaching of God's Word.)
14] 7. Also, that in conversion and regeneration God entirely exterminates the substance and essence of the old Adam, and especially the rational soul, and in conversion and regeneration creates a new essence of the soul out of nothing.
15] 8. Also, when the following expressions are employed without explanation, namely, that the will of man before, in, and after conversion resists the Holy Ghost, and that the Holy Ghost is given to those who resist Him intentionally and persistently; for, as Augustine says, in conversion God makes willing persons out of the unwilling and dwells in the willing.
16] As to the expressions of ancient and modern teachers of the Church, when it is said: Deus trahit, sed volentem trahit, i. e., God draws, but He draws the willing; likewise, Hominis voluntas in conversione non est otiosa, sed agit aliquid, i. e., In conversion the will of man is not idle, but also effects something, we maintain that, inasmuch as these expressions have been introduced for confirming [the false opinion concerning] the powers of the natural free will in man's conversion, against the doctrine of God's grace, they do not conform to the form of sound doctrine, and therefore, when we speak of conversion to God, justly ought to be avoided.
17] But, on the other hand, it is correctly said that in conversion God, through the drawing of the Holy Ghost, makes out of stubborn and unwilling men willing ones, and that after such conversion in the daily exercise of repentance the regenerate will of man is not idle, but also cooperates in all the works of the Holy Ghost, which He performs through us.
18] 9. Also what Dr. Luther has written, namely, that man's will in his conversion is pure passive, that is, that it does nothing whatever, is to be understood respectu divinae gratiae in accendendis novis motibus, that is, when God's Spirit, through the Word heard or the use of the holy Sacraments, lays hold upon man's will, and works [in man] the new birth and conversion. For when [after] the Holy Ghost has wrought and accomplished this, and man's will has been changed and renewed by His divine power and working alone, then the new will of man is an instrument and organ of God the Holy Ghost, so that he not only accepts grace, but also cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the works which follow.
19] Therefore, before the conversion of man there are only two efficient causes, namely, the Holy Ghost and the Word of God, as the instrument of the Holy Ghost, by which He works conversion. This Word man is [indeed] to hear; however, it is not by his own powers, but only through the grace and working of the Holy Ghost that he can yield faith to it and accept it.
So Jesus is glorified in His judgement. Because it's His will. We have to be careful when thinking about the mind of God and how He thinks. As high as the heavens are over the earth, so "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." Some things we can't understand. This is a hard question and topic, but who are we to tell the sculptor, "why have you made them this way?" Can the pot maker not make vessels for honorable ans dishonorable use as He sees fit? I can tell you this, not everything we think of as evil, or bad, always ends up as a bad thing to happen. I can promise you that the motorcycle wreak that took all function from my right, and dominate arm. It crushed me, it tested the limits of my internal strength, and crushed it. This think called life I could no longer handle and that evening on Sept. 29th 2013 while weeping hopelessly broken on the floor out almighty King reached down and picked me up making me all new. I can go into how He radically changed me overnight, or how He lead me to the truth of what happen the next day, all that, a 300 page book, but my main point here is about this "choice" you're talking about. You don't make that, God grants it to you. Praise His glorious Name!!!
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James Disproves Free Will
“For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.” James 3:7–12 (KJV 1900)
“For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.” James 3:7–12 (KJV 1900)
No, they do not have to be saved before they can believe. Even in your own doctrine Hebrews 6:4-6 is understood to be an enlightening of the Holy Spirit of unsaved people. The obvious reason for such enlightenment prior to salvation is so they can know what it is they are to believe in.
The requirement for salvation is that you have the faith to believe.
The requirement for salvation is that you have the faith to believe.
This sounds kind of wrong to me, I have to bring my faith to God to be saved? How can I have faith of my own first? This sounds like a "requirement" honestly. And please don't get me wrong I understand what you mean, and from our limited human perspective it does seem as if "we chose", I get what you mean, I only believe that by His grace He grants you that faith you're talking about, this is why He gets the glory. We come to Him dead in our sins with empty hands. We have nothing to offer and as I shared above He picked me up, He came all the way down to me and picked me up. I did not chose Him before this happen, at all, just knew "my way" was futile and saw it for the meaningless path to misery that it was. He granted me repentance that day and then saved me. He chose me strait up, and please understand that I am not boasting here, I'm testifying of His power and how He saved me.
I know that this is not like most testimonies, most are when people chose to come to Him and truly repent in that way. I understand to most this is just how they experienced it, and all glory to Jesus for every one of them, but I still believe that it was only by His power they were drawn to Him and saved. He sent those around them preaching the word, He orchestrated every good time and hard tragedy that tore your heart pushing you closer to Him. He gives the growth and gets all glory for every bit of it. I just think that if you believe we bring anything to God, that we have anything to offer Him, any kind of "requirement", even faith of our own, you're a bit off in my opinion. Respectfully. How do you see it?
I know that this is not like most testimonies, most are when people chose to come to Him and truly repent in that way. I understand to most this is just how they experienced it, and all glory to Jesus for every one of them, but I still believe that it was only by His power they were drawn to Him and saved. He sent those around them preaching the word, He orchestrated every good time and hard tragedy that tore your heart pushing you closer to Him. He gives the growth and gets all glory for every bit of it. I just think that if you believe we bring anything to God, that we have anything to offer Him, any kind of "requirement", even faith of our own, you're a bit off in my opinion. Respectfully. How do you see it?
You don't have any faith of your own.
Faith is the evidence of things unseen (Hebrews 11:1).
No one has the proof and the evidence of the unseen, until God gives them that evidence through the testimony of the Holy Spirit.
Then in response to this faith--this knowing--we then place our trust in what God has shown us through the gift of faith to be true about Jesus.
Then we are saved.
Simply knowing the gospel is true doesn't save anybody. It's believing and trusting in the gospel you now know to be true that saves a person. God gives us the faith to know the gospel is true. From there we believe in it and are saved.
Faith is the evidence of things unseen (Hebrews 11:1).
No one has the proof and the evidence of the unseen, until God gives them that evidence through the testimony of the Holy Spirit.
Then in response to this faith--this knowing--we then place our trust in what God has shown us through the gift of faith to be true about Jesus.
Then we are saved.
Simply knowing the gospel is true doesn't save anybody. It's believing and trusting in the gospel you now know to be true that saves a person. God gives us the faith to know the gospel is true. From there we believe in it and are saved.
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Acts 16:14, The fact that Lydia was already worshiping God, indicates that she was already born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and that is why she could attend to the things which were spoken of Paul. Only God's sheep hear his voice. The old testament saints received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the same way that we do in the regeneration process of the new birth. Isaiah 63:11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him?
the "all men" is all men of a certain group, and in this case, it ia all men of the elect of God. When we are regenerated, we are born again as newborn babes in Christ. Newborn babes can not digest the meat of the gospel, and are nourished on the milk of the word until they grow into maturity and can digest the meat of the gospel. Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.
Jesus is the Saviour of all of his elect, specially of those that are mature enough to understand doctrine. All scripture must harmonize before we can understand the truths within them.
Most choose not to believe what God enlightens them about.
1 John 5:9-10 explains how enlightenment comes to us through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. Some (most) choose not to retain the knowledge of the unseen in their hearts. Some (few) do retain the knowledge of the unseen in their hearts and are saved.
1 John 5:9-10 explains how enlightenment comes to us through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. Some (most) choose not to retain the knowledge of the unseen in their hearts. Some (few) do retain the knowledge of the unseen in their hearts and are saved.
Heb 5:12-14, For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For everyone that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.