What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

I can respect that, not like my respect means a thing, but that's how He seem to be growing me too. I used to believe like you, but He kept confronting me with all these things that made everything fit together so much better than an other options I've come across. I believe a bunch of new and more fleshed out things and pray I continue to grow in Him, in His truth until I die. I pray He used you to help grow me more through our conversation here, and pray He opens your eyes to new and more truth as well, all to His glory.

Holla-Boo-Ya!!!!!!

You keep wanting PROOF in "mans" world. I can't help you there. I walk by faith. I am sorry that isn't enough for you. You need to hold on to that to keep your belief as it is. I can't help you there. You wish for me to turn from what God has given me. It will never happen. because my faith is in the Word. IT changes NOTHING for me when I do not know or understand something. There have been years when I could not see the simplest of Gods Truth and could not understand why until the moment it was given and only then did I understand and for me that comes from hours of study and prayer and pondering on the works of God. I personally DON'T CARE about how, or when, or what form or place BECAUSE of my faith. All I can tell you is pray and God will answer.

I am not in "a camp". I walk in faith. God will provide all that is needed. If I needed the understanding, I would pray for it. But I don't.

And FYI, I am not a pre tribber. I believe when Jesus returns for a second time for the day of vengeance, as Lord of lord and King of kings and the Lords Day begins and Satan is bound for 1000 yrs, in other words the Millennium, is the very next time. No coming in-between for no reason. After all, there is a war in heaven, Satan cast out, and silence for 1/2 hour. When is it Jesus and the army would have a moment to head down to earth for a "rapsure" and what kind of wedding feast would be going on at that time? Makes not sense to me but if I didn't have the faith that Gods Wrath couldn't touch me, I would be looking for a way out myself.

I know my writings don't show it but I thank you for the conversation because I like nothing more than to study His Word. Your perspective is one I have never heard before. Actually quite a few in these forums are brand new. Each one is like a file that refines, smooths out the edges. Who knows, maybe you wont die. Time is short. Keep the eyes on Jerusalem, after all it is Gods favorite place in the universe.

See the thing is I don't "need" proof, this isn't something I really like discussing honestly. This is just the truth He has lead me to and I have to proclaim it. I don't believe this because "it fits the world", or anything like that, and to suggest I am not walking in faith and have to have the kind of "PROOF" you're suggesting here is at least a bit of a low blow, and can only be made by someone who doesn't know me, which you don't so I understand and am not offended. I believe this now because He has grown me to see it, and it just so happens to fit everything in scripture and in history. Well not "everything", but so far enough to convince the heck out of me. The problems and things that don't fit a futurist view are too many to number. See what I mean? Just seeking truth.
I'm not sure where I ever suggested or gave the impression that I want to "turn from what God has given me (you)", I am so sorry. First and foremost my piddly little butt isn't even capable of taking anything from our King, but that is so far from what I want. I only care about the truth. I LOVE the truth, and only by His grace and power can I even desire these things. I am not trying to hurt or take anything from anyone. I am only seeking the truth, and truly if I seemed like I am trying to take something from you, or hurt you in any way I am sorry. That is the furthest thing from my mind. I'm only trying to share and learn. I also admire and love your passion for our God and I pray He forever nurture this gift, and let it testify of His power forever. I hope you have a great night.

I suppose I have at times focused on particular wording also but the deeper I dug into any one particular word It came to the same conclusion. For instance https://outreachjudaism.org/400000-variants-in-the-nt-greek-manuscript/ and there are many other sources this is just the first type page I came to when writing this post,lol

In any event though from what I have found there are only fragments of the original manuscripts(Apostles autographs) and then the multitude of copies of copies. Some of these copies are complete but the farther back in time we go the more damage is found and so much of the Scriptures we have are taken from many of the different manuscripts we have and pieced together from one until it gets to missing portions and then they used another copy to continue interpreting these books. In short though there are thousands of differences in the scripts that were used and then so no way of knowing if any one word like "the" was present or not in the Autographs.

When JESUS comes HE will slay the wicked by the brightness OF HIS coming They will lay from end of the earth to the other . Jeremiah 25:33 tells us And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of earth even unto the other end of the earth ;they shall not be lamented , neither gathered , nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground . &Jeremiah 16:4 tells you & this is the great supper for the birds that GOD tells us about in HIS word . Jer 9:22 & Jer 4: 27 & afew more tell us .

First, I am sorry. I can't stand it when someone questions my faith or implies I need to be saved so I understand the offense of it and I am truly sorry for making you feel or think that for even a moment. We see the past and the future very differently. I figure if Paul didn't know Jesus was the Messiah with as much as he knew, I am definitely way wrong in places, just don't know where.
I believe that God uses the past to show us what to expect in the future. I believe events happened in the past so we will know what to expect and how to navigate through in this last generation. Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. I do believe that prophecy was fulfilled at the destruction which covers "that which is done" but stands as an example, just a shadow of "that which shall be done", as that that was done was on a much smaller scale, that being "the world then" this being "the world now" That coming by man, what's coming by God.
Matthew 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
Matthew 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Matthew 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Matthew 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last for many be called, but few chosen.
We are a chosen generation.

Israel became a nation once again, a prophecy that had to be fulfilled for the end generation to begin, as I see it. Time and study will tell. I, like you only care about finding Gods Truth. I am lucky because I acturally started to STUDY the Word because I was out to prove that I was right and they were wrong. OOPs. 100 percent wrong was me. I thank God for that because to come from such a sure and proud place to flat on my face was about the best thing that ever happen to me as far as the Word of God goes. So I am sorry for having offended you, it was NOT YOU, just that "temple". We shall see. Keep up the good seeking of the Lord and the truth in His word. Best thing ever is knowing that all will be revealed and I for one know I will look back and think "How did you not see that" and much more I am sure.

Yesterday or today, I don't know I said the Word was super simple. I am going to amend that to There are places for me that are clear as day followed by WoW, I got nothing. Thank you for the correction, the gentle correction you most graciously put forth. I appreciate it and will try to tone it down, make it better.

Deighann,

I know I've been hard on you and I'm sorry. I'm trying to show you another way (the correct way) to understand the Bible.

Are you in Ezekiel again? You aren't going to be looking at Satan. In that passage, The King of Tyre was being compared to Satan because he was of Satan. That King died so long ago.

Much of prophecy is written is colorful, figurative language. This is perhaps the most important thing for you to know. Just like any good novel, the Bible is super colorful. If you literalize everything, you are going to be wrong at least 30% of the time. Revelation copies so much of the OT figurative language. It was done that way so only knowing Jews would get it and any Roman would not.

The Timothy passage, written by Paul, was written before the resurrection before Paul's death but it would happen pretty soon after this. Got to run. Will keep you in prayer because I think you are looking for answers and the futurist view is so fraught with problems that it can never be supported without the most incredible Biblical gymnastics. God Bless!!

Just for the point of explanation,,, many times in threads like this the issue of whether prophecy is future or past tense quickly becomes an issue and words like futurist ,preterist ect, are used. I see it present tense to me/us(my contemporaries) past tense to those before us and future to those afterwards as if I/we are living in the days of our Lord.

You forget that Christ said He was going to send His Helper, the Holy Spirit, to help guide His followers in His absence. The Helper came at Pentecost. This is how Christ would be with them, "even unto the end of the age" 40 years later.

It's a rather strange concept I think that Revelations is addressed to the seven Churches in Asia but you think it's written in figurative language only knowing Jews would get,,,poor Gentiles in Asia ?

This is good in that it is the first time I've see you budge from FP and say things an Amil. or Partial preterits would say("In the Mill. right now").

Happened twice, once during the Babylonian conquest then again in 70 AD. The 70 AD "Day of the Lord" judgment was far worse than any judgment any nation had endured, or ever will again. There were dead bodies scattered throughout Israel ("the earth") from one end to the other. Inside Jerusalem, the conditions were so bad that mothers were eating their newborn babies ("woe to nursing mothers in those days"). Men were eating their leather belts. There wasn't one house or one street that wasn't lined with dead bodies. This was the judgment of that wicked and perverse generation.

If I am to be in a camp, I'd call it, "In-Millennialism." Clearly we are not in the same age as the disciples and patriarchs were in.

The 7 churches in Asia were mostly Jewish Christians being persecuted by unbelieving Jews as we see in Acts 17. The Gentiles in Asia weren't about to face judgment, the unbelieving Jews doing the persecuting, were. The Gentile Christians in Asia had no historical reason to return to Jerusalem in 69-70 AD.

You are pretty well read in history. I know this so you should know it also. All devout Jews would return to Jerusalem for certain feasts from all over the Roman Empire they would come. We see this in Acts 2:5 "And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven." This returning to one's homeland for religious feasts was unique to Israel in that day as the Muslim faith wasn't started until the 630s AD. Thus, this verse from Acts ties directly to this verse from Rev 17:15 "Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues." Taken together, these 2 verses identify Jerusalem of the first century as the great harlot which was in an adulterous affair with Rome.

It was again, during Passover (no coincidence) that unbelieving Jews from all over the world, came to Jerusalem and were trapped inside when Titus arrived at that time. They did not hear or remember the warning Christ gave in Luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her." Christ locates where the GT was to take place - Judea. This is why He tells those outside, not to come in. You see, it was during the time of Passover, that Roman general Titus besieged Jerusalem. Since that action coincided with Passover, the Romans allowed pilgrims to enter the city but refused to let them leave—thus strategically depleting food and water supplies within Jerusalem. It all fits like a glove.

JTB was the first to proclaim what was coming to them in Mat 3:12 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” John affirms this "harvesting" theme, but more importantly, the method used in Rev 14:18 "And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God." How was Jerusalem destroyed? Case closed.

Why do you jump to this EXTREME conclusion here? Why couldn't the "poor Gentiles in Asia", take the letter in it's full context and understand exactly what's being said just like we are now? The only point I'm trying to make here is I don't like this tactic of taking a small problem you perceive then blowing it up to apply to a countryside of hypothetical innocent (as if there is such a thing) people, and if this were so then it would be God's morality that is off.

I mean I just personally find arguments of this nature strange and honestly I can't find any point in stating that if "this happen", then God must not love "whatever". I honestly don't see the merit or truth in this kind of argument. It's opinions not facts.

Just my perspective, and I'm not trying to be ugly only point it out. This comment was about the nature of the argument presented, not with the content therein.

This is all over the earth , & no one to buried , It's never happen all over the earth before . But it will when JESUS comes back .GOD BLESS

'K, are you saying that the "believing Jews" DID escape, and the "unbelieving Jews" DIDN'T, so were "trapped inside" and were "refused [to let them leave]" (and only them, the "unbelieving Jews")?

...coz Revelation 12:6 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place having been prepared there by God, so that they should nourish her there one thousand two hundred sixty days."


[recall, I (as a "futurist" if you wanna call it that) DO believe that Luke 21:21 *IS* indeed speaking of the 70ad events, in the SECTION of the Olivet Discourse devoted to "the 70ad events" (vv.12-24a, with 24b following on from there) BECAUSE OF the word in v.12 "BUT BEFORE all these [but BEFORE all these 'beginning of birth pangs' JUST NAMED in vv.8-11 (we know are parallel to Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8)… BEFORE all those, is it that]" that the 70ad events described in vv.12-24a must take place... not AFTER the BoBPs and not TOGETHER-WITH the BoBPs, but "BEFORE" them! the 70ad events must occur (and, note, I do not say "immediately before" but "SEQUENTIALLY before"--because in the far-future parts of the Olivet Discourse, "the woman" INDEED *FLED* [will do] to the place God has prepared for her, and for the 1260 days remaining, is [will be] there)]

I don't perceive you as trying to be ugly I understand that many of these type discussions might lead to that but I generally bow out and look at other threads when they do. I see plainword as a dear friend and enjoy following along with him as well as others post and am not trying to belittle him in the least.

I don't remember posting to you in threads before if so I apologize for not remembering. When I was young I read bits and pieces of the bible and would ask the deacons questions about different things. When I was about 18 I decided to just sit down and begin in Genesis 1;1 and read all the way through the bible and did so. This was about 70 years ago and I have no idea now how many times I have read the different books in the bible, some of them several hundred times.

I suppose the issue of camps began with the protestant movement several hundred years ago because there was only the Catholic Church before that from around 300ad onward and so the issue of having a little different view of what Scripture meant was not tolerated.

I do not hold to the main four Eschatological camps because I see them as having what I refer to as certain "foggy grey areas" in their exegesis of things. That is I notice that they begin on a seemingly sound footing but then drift off into an unknown area on other matters.

If someone makes a firm stance on something they see in prophecy then later as several things seem to also fit together other things should also fall into agreement with the stance they began with. In general I will listen to them and then as I ponder it compare it to Scripture and so although you might not see why I make certain comments I have made them based on things that were discussed in the past with those who hold to that position in eschatology.

I will give you an example,,,, In Revelation 13:11-18 there is a mark of the beast implemented by the two horned beast. The image is set up and those who do not worship it are killed. those who buy and sell must have the mark or they cannot buy and sell. Now there are different ideas of this among the camps to consider so I will ask you a question.

In ad70 who fulfilled the Scriptures of Revelation 13:11-18? the Jews minted their own coins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage and the Jews also refused to bow down to Rome/Caesar so if Rome is the beast it can not be said that the Jews worshiped it as God or bought or sold with their mark because they revolted against them "Jewish revolt" http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html

Now then the Romans were not destroyed in fact in history they win all three Jewish revolts and continue onward in time after ad70. The Jews revolt against the fourth beast(Rome) and don't worship it or use it's money to buy or sell. And the Christians are told to see the powers over them (Rome at that time as ordained by God Romans 13:1-7) and to render them their dues(payment/dues/money) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13&version=KJV Now of these mentioned the Christians the Jews and the Romans who is it that worshiped the Image of the beast and took it's mark to buy and sell? That is you see if these Scriptures were fulfilled by ad70 then one camp makes sense but if not then the other does because it is yet future.

It would appear we are in the age of Adam as in all die. The same age as the disciples and patriarchs were in.