Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims

More people being saved, perhaps?

OPC is also good.

I am not a paedobaptist, though.

I like Reformed Baptist beliefs.

However, their worship style is a little too structured. I am considering attending one now, though. The pastor of the EFree church I attend has been drifting into charismatic theology a little. I'm really not comfortable with that.

I was born and raised in the PCUSA denomination but attended a Reformed seminary. PCUSA, Reformed, Lutheran and one other denomination accept one another’s ordained ministers therefore those seminaries have a multitude of students from various backgrounds.

No issue.

Applying to a good seminary is difficult. They make sure the person doesn't believe any weird stuff and they request references from the pastor of the church he attends. And, they typically don't allow "lone ranger" Christians to attend.

Another thing that seminary life helps is that it requires that person to live in community with the other students AND the professors, so this tests that they are able to work cooperatively, rather than being a contentious person who is a loner.

That's part of the reason why I don't think I'd be accepted in a reputable organization like Westminster Seminary or Reformed Theological Seminary or Gordon Conwell. I think I'm a bit too old to pursue ordination anyways, but even if I was not, I haven't lived enough in close community with others due to my health and backsliding at one point in life. I guess I had a lot of fellowship in the cultic group, though.

That's one reason why I admire Asians...they basically live in closer community than us, at least in the Philippines.

So you admit that persecution is related to the socio-political environment and there are many, many, many believers down through the ages lived in relative peace and harmony and were faithful to the faith......therefore persecution is not a universally applicable experience for all Christians.

You know if you think persecution and suffering is so essential and required to the Christian faith .......I would think you would be on the next boat to China with bibles and tracts in hand.

Please elaborate on the aspects of charismatic theology that make you feel uncomfortable.

I've really only talked much to OPC or PCA Presbyterians.

I'm not even that familiar with Lutherans although there's a lot of Lutherans around me. Their ancestors were mostly Germans.

My background is Appalachian so their churches are largely Freewill Baptist and Pentecostals, neither of which I like. Both are Arminians and into emotionalism. Salvation to them is largely about conjuring up enough faith and repentance from their own resources.

While God "can" impart the knowledge and understanding directly, He normally does so through years of study. Pastors may have the time to teach all that students need to know, or they may not, at least not in any reasonable time. Professors are not pastors, nor vice versa. Jesus is an exception, and even His disciples spent three years with Him.

The reality is that those who teach need support, just like those who pastor. Charging for classes just standardizes the cost for everyone. Someone genuinely interested in learning can learn most of what is needed without attending a seminary, but it might take many years.

Persecution and suffering is a normative part of the Christian experience. I'd have to be biblically illiterate to deny that.

And I wonder if that's really the problem.

Regarding me going to China, I'd love to. I've broken my neck, back, hip, and tibial plateau in an auto accident, plus shattered my arm and wrist. I am 56. I feel regular pain due to the breaks, although I can endure it because I know somehow it works to my good because I believe in God's sovereignty in all things. I would be a greater liability than a blessing to them. However, I have Filipino friends who are church planters and I'm giving them Bibles and other materials because I know they will use them. God opened up this avenue for me, so I am pursuing it.

See, one's theology affects how they endure and how they view their situation. I have no unmet expectations because I know God uses every condition like this to the good. And, I am not alone. That is why Reformed people are less susceptible to drifting into bitterness due to some health condition or lack of wealth or whatever. They haven't been taught the garbage theology that such things are entitlements. They know God is good and blesses them even in trials and suffering. However, it takes eyes of faith to see that.

Now THAT’S an interesting statement.

I am truly sorrow for your pain...... car accidents suck to put it bluntly!!!

My point is this some Christians suffer, some do not... you should be thankful we still live in a relatively free society... most people want this, that is why they try to come here.

Suffering may/may not be part of the Christian life but it surely is not necessary for Christian growth.

I am not Reformed and I am not bitter... you have no evidence that Reformed are less bitter btw.

I have already done that, although it's across two different threads, one on Bethel and one on suffering.

I don't believe their supernatural claims concerning healings and resurrections. They promote the idea that healings are guarantees in this lifetime, and that they are entitled as believers to them. They claim that they can do all the miracles of Jesus individually. They believe that there are apostles and prophets today, and often use this claim to exalt themselves. They do not believe that suffering is an integral part of being conformed to the image of Christ. Additionally, most are Arminians and hold what I consider to be a deficient theology.

They claim God speaks to them audibly.

They often hold a two-tier view of Christianity, with the "spirit filled" ones, like themselves, on the top, and the normal Christians on the bottom.

Additionally, many of them set themselves up, in essence, like witch doctors who can deliver others from demons. They blame sins upon demon possession, rather than taking personal responsibility for them.

Of course, I realize that not every charismatic holds every one of these views, and I am lumping a wide variety of people together, but many do in fact hold these views. Just about every charismatic I've interacted with eventually conveys some claim like one of the above.

My grandmother was a Pentecostal. She basically "cursed" my aunt, speaking in some kind of weird voice, because my aunt divorced her husband due to childlessness and alcoholism. She later had a child by a second husband, and the child had cerebral palsy.

My understanding is that she thought the child was cursed because of her sin. If she hadn't been exposed to the curse of my Pentecostal grandmother, though, she wouldn't have believed that.

Now, I fully acknowledge she sinned in divorcing her husband, but I don't think God cursed the child as a result. This is the result of my grandmother's claims.

If this type of behavior were isolated to my grandmother, I wouldn't have a big issue with charismaticism but it is not. There are all kinds of immature, idiotic claims made by charismatics. Many of them think God is their cosmic genie, and if they declare something, it's going to happen because they are in control.

How old are you?

You don't need to answer that, but perhaps you haven't lived enough of life to see that suffering happens to all.

I was probably 49 before I experienced serious suffering. The body starts to fall apart, and in my case the accident happened.

All of these things work toward causing someone to desire the consummation of the new creation. They also display the remaining issues in one's heart. When we have plenty, we don't complain against God and take him for granted. When we suffer scarcity and hardship, we are tested in regards to the condition of our heart. It isn't that the thanklessness and other negative things don't exist in the heart; they are drawn up like impurities in metal are drawn to the top from heating it.

Anyways, if you want to claim that some individuals don't suffer as part of their sanctification, I don't think your view is biblical. Perhaps it's based on a theology that I don't share. I believe salvation is basically union with Christ, and that union with Christ envelops justification, sanctification and glorification. Suffering is part of what God uses for sanctification. The believer identifies with Christ in multiple ways, and sharing in his suffering is one of them.

I am not sure if it was you or someone else, but someone said that understanding is Roman Catholic. It is common to think Roman Catholics are complete idiots. They aren't. They know some things, even if they don't understand justification correctly and are engaged in subtle idolatry.

It really doesn't take any more than reading the Bible to understand what I have said. However, for those who want a cosmic genie who is obligated to respond in a robotic fashion if they use the right formulas, that kind of God is scary. The idea that God has suffering in store for them at some point scares the crap out of some people. It would scare me too if I believed it at earlier points of my faith.

I get it you have to attach meaning to suffering... I used to think this way.

Sometimes suffering is just suffering.

And it is true there are some deep insights in some Catholic writings... Thomas Merton's early works being one.

If you are into suffering .. you might enjoy

"A Severe Mercy" by Sheldon Vanauken

if you really want to know about suffering you could also read Victor Frankl "Man's Search for Meaning"

I believe there is growth and meaning outside of suffering... sanctification is living out our righteousness that is given by Jesus.. it does not take suffering to do that... it does take abiding in Him.

Firstly, I didn't say that suffering was the only way God sanctifies. It is ONE of the ways. Denying that it is one of the ways is the problem. That is something that Bill Johnson and other charismatics claim. It is a false claim.

Suffering can be as subtle as giving up your right to retaliate against someone who has sinned against you, and not retaliating. There is a form of suffering that goes on when anyone gives up their selfish right to retaliate and lash back when mistreated.

However, failing to realize that there are tons of Christians all over the world who suffer on a daily basis is short-sighted and typically American.

Secondly, I don't recognize those authors. They might be liberals for all I know. I recommend Paul or Ted Tripp, or Nancy Guthrie. These three guys/gals have written about suffering and they come from a Reformed worldview that acknowledges God's sovereignty in all things.

Now why would I recommend Liberals... the book by Victor Frankl is a classic.. he was a Jewish psychiatrist who survived the holocaust.

and btw I am not short sighted..... my glasses are for distance vision

Is Victor Frankl a Christian?

I do not know I never asked him.

Okay take him off the list.

If I'm not mistaken someone mentioned him to me before and he is an observant Jew.

I am not really into their views on suffering. For example, a Rabbi Kushner wrote a book that basically said God isn't in control, and that's why suffering occurs in the world. In other words, God doesn't want it to happen but it happens anyways.

It is called "When Bad Things Happen to Good People".

Well, first issue is there are no good people.

Second issue is, God is in control.

I consider the Jewish people today to be, essentially, unbelievers, other than Messianic Jews.