Election 101

Chris1975 · Dec 26, 2019

My personal position is that I don’t follow any TULIP acronym. In fact I refuse to put biblical principles into a nice neat box of easy to understand principles. Reason: I think that many have been led astray by a Fast-Food version of the scriptures, and the risk to a person seeking out the Lord is that they first come across this TULIP, believe the TULIP, and then see everything they read in the bible through TULIP eyes. It becomes a PARADIGM that is hard to dislodge. My opinion is that the bible cannot be summarised so concisely. It is far better for a person to open up the Holy Scriptures, read for Him/Herself, and have the Holy Spirit lead them into all truth. That said, I would like to touch on the topic of Election, which seems to be a bone of contention amongst the brethren. My view on Election is that God Sovereignly elects those people from before time began to whom will receive salvation. This to many would seem an unfair proposition, that some would be selected and others not, but the scriptures in my view are very clear that this is very much true. We must understand the starting point. ALL are found under the death penalty, and NONE deserve salvation. I think most in the Church would agree that this is a FAIR starting point. Then if this is a fair starting point, then the sentences I wrote just before this that God sovereignly elects some to salvation once again becomes fair. It is a gift to those to whom He chooses. The ones under the death penalty (who already deserve it) cannot tell God that He is being unfair. For they receive their just desserts. He Chose us from before the world began. And that is ok. Some vessels in the potters house are made for honour and some for dishonour. Now, a very important point I want to make: NONE OF US KNOW WHO GODS ELECT ARE. IN fact the bible says in Romans 8v19 “19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.” The creation doesn’t know yet. We see many in the church, and we sometimes get into thinking they are all God’s Elect. But the truth is not so. Many are sheep but many are goats. Many are wheat but many are tares. God does the separating at the judgement. Those who go onto salvation were ALWAYS ELECT. It is God’s sovereign choice, and none of our business. Our business is to share the Gospel, teach, admonish, edify and warn, love and obey. The bible say MANY ARE CALLED, but few are CHOSEN. Do you sit back and think, who are the called and the chosen? We look to the Parable of the sower, and find seed landing on 4 different types of soil. Yet only one type of soil (hearts) goes on to produce the fruit. The truth of the matter is many will not let go of the world, of their sins, not willing to carry their crosses. They want the “Best of Both Worlds”, their sins and Grace. You can’t have both.
Where many of the TULIP protagonists get it wrong is when it comes to the understanding of Sanctification. They have literally already arrived, and are at risk of avoiding the sanctification process altogether. They go so far as to say because salvation is guaranteed, that God will overlook willfull disobedience. There is no need for repentance, or repentance is something that is optional so that you have a better life in the here and now. That is super risky. That tells me that there is something wrong with their hearts, and may in fact not be regenerated after all.
I could post dozens and dozens of verses that show unrepentant sinfulness leads to a falling away (apostasy). Those who fall away were never Elect. God cannot be mocked.

John146 · Dec 26, 2019

Chris1975 said:

According to your opinion, you or anyone else cannot know if they are “elect” or not.

Chris1975 · Dec 26, 2019

John146 said:

That's correct. The bible says so. The true church are Elect but as to who these are will still be revealed: Romans 8v19 “19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.”

John146 · Dec 26, 2019

Chris1975 said:

My salvation is committed unto God and He will keep it. You too should be persuaded of this wonderful blessing.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom Ihave believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Btw, no one believes your following quote: They want the “Best of Both Worlds”, their sins and Grace. You can’t have both.

Hevosmies · Dec 26, 2019

Chris1975 said:

If no one can know who the elect are, HOW COME:

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Btw Thanks for making another thread about this homeslice so we dont flood the not by works thread. Can you explain what you meant by those who are "pre-manufactured" and predetermined, what do you mean by that term? Who are these folks?

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 26, 2019

Chris1975 said:

I am neither Calvinist, nor Arminianist.

So, I do not hold to the same understanding of "elect" that Calvinism does (however, I DO believe in "eternal security" for those who are in Christ [more like "preservation of the saints"]).

[here's a post I made on the "CALLED" verses, and how the two distinct Greek words should be seen, noted, understood in their EACH being used in BOTH passages; quoting that post]

Re: "CALLED"... and the TWO distinct Greek words translated "CALL/CALLED" (or "INVITE/INVITED"):

G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"

G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"

It is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH [/EACH] the Matthew 22:1-14 [*note your verse here] passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses

G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name" -

Matthew 22:3 V-ANA
GRK: δούλους αὐτοῦ καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους
NAS: out his slaves to call those
KJV: servants to call them that were bidden
INT: servants of him to call those having been invited

Matthew 22:3 V-RPM/P-AMP
GRK: καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους εἰς τοὺς
NAS: those who had been invited to the wedding feast,
KJV: to call them that were bidden to
INT: to call those having been invited to the

Matthew 22:4 V-RPM/P-DMP
GRK: Εἴπατε τοῖς κεκλημένοις Ἰδοὺ τὸ
NAS: those who have been invited, Behold,
KJV: Tell them which are bidden, Behold,
INT: Say to those having been invited Behold the

Matthew 22:8 V-RPM/P-NMP
GRK: οἱ δὲ κεκλημένοι οὐκ ἦσαν
NAS: but those who were invited were not worthy.
KJV: but they which were bidden were
INT: those moreover having been invited not were

[NOTE: these ^ had rejected the invitation/call, per vv.3,5,6]

Matthew 22:9 V-AMA-2P
GRK: ἐὰν εὕρητε καλέσατε εἰς τοὺς
NAS: as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.'
KJV: ye shall find, bid to
INT: if you shall find invite to the

Romans 8:30 V-AIA-3S
GRK: τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν καὶ οὓς
NAS: He also called; and these
KJV: he also called: and whom
INT: these also he called and whom

G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon" -

Matthew 22:14 Adj-NMP [*note your verse here]
GRK: γάρ εἰσιν κλητοὶ ὀλίγοι δὲ
NAS: For many are called, but few
KJV: many are called, but few
INT: indeed are called few however

Romans 8:28 Adj-DMP
GRK: κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν
NAS: to those who are called according
KJV: to them who are the called according
INT: according to [his] purpose called are

[note: the Matthew 22:1-7,8-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom which will be commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas the Romans 8 passage is referring to (that which pertains to) "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]"), so there's that distinction to be noted also--not that this makes much difference in how these two words are used (re: call/invite)]

[quoting from BibleHub]

"In the NT, 2822 /klētós ("divinely called") focuses on God's general call – i.e. the call (invitation) He gives to all people, so all can receive His salvation. God desires every person to call out to Him and receive His salvation (1 Tim 2:4,5). "Unfortunately, many choose not to – but all can; all don't but all can call out to God for His mercy (not just 'some')" (G. Archer)." [source: BibleHub]

[end quoting that post]

How do you see that ^ as saying something different from "eternal security of those in Christ"...? (I'm not sure how you are meaning this, instead... Are you saying they "believed" and thus were "saved," but that they never quite made it to [/achieved] the "elect status" by means of their self-efforts subsequent to their "believing [/saved status]"??)

Chris1975 · Dec 26, 2019

Hevosmies said:

Hi Hemosvies,

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

These who are predestined are the Elect. We can see this a few verses later: 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect?

Its important to note that not all believers at a particular point are Elect. There is a reason for the distinction in the term. Election talks about the full EXPANSE of time (from before Time Began through to Eternity). This is the full purview of God. He knew His elect before we were born (that is clear from the scriptures), and we see these elect being Glorified (which is into Eternity).

However believers COME AND GO. By this I mean not everyone who believes CONTINUES to believe. We can see this in the parable of the sower, where the seed fell on rocky ground Luke 8 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of [g]temptation fall away.
Those who fall away were BELIEVERS, but were NEVER ELECT. And when we mix up ELECTION scriptures and apply these to BELIEVER scriptures there results in many instances confusion and debate. For example @mailmandan (whom I respect very much as I find that although we differ on many fronts, he at least makes very solid cases) will quote ELECT scriptures and apply BELIEVERS into this. And this very well may apply to many or most believers, but not necessarily ALL believers as the bible says that some will fall away. A point to which the return argument is that "true believers never fall away". Yet its the "Elect" that never fall away.

But we, whilst we walk this earth, do not yet know the identities of the Elect. We know that they ARE in the church (hence your quote in Col 3v12 above), but I think its a stretch to pronounce someone as "ELECT". I believe only God knows exactly who His elect are. And its probably better that way. For we are to love our brothers equally. To those who OVERCOME, he gives the right to eat from the tree of life. Those who overcome are the ELECT, and these are the ones He glorifies (Romans 8v30).

Nehemiah6 · Dec 26, 2019

Chris1975 said:

You bolded "to be conformed to the image of His Son" but you failed to focus on its significance in relation to predestination.

That verse does NOT say "predestined to be justified" (as Calvinists automatically assume). It says "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" and that refers to the perfection and glorification of the saints.

Since no one is elected for salvation or damnation, and all are commanded to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, election and predestination are for the perfection of those who have been justified by grace through faith.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 26, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

That is correct.

Those who have been justified (saved by grace through faith) are who receive "the package deal" (the entire thing from start to finish, which includes "glorification"); this is what the word "predestination" refers to ["the package deal"]

this pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]--i.e. all those saved in this present age [singular], from Pentecost to "our Rapture")

Deade · Dec 26, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Actually, you clarified nothing. You can jumble and rearrange the words predestined, called, conformed, justified, and glorified but you can't make them say something else. Yes, choice and predestination are very real but not fully understood. We are chosen for the first-fruits church from the foundation of the world.

Eph. 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

We can't call something for certain, until God is completely done with us all. Every man has his predestined time to be called. We don't have to understand everything, He is doing, and we won't until we are with Him. When we have the right mindset, we won't feel the need to interpret every scripture. Some things might not be for us in this age. It is okay to leave some scripture unsettled, for now.

Chris1975 · Dec 26, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

You are right in that I forgot to elaborate on this section. For certain this is God's plan, that we be conformed into the image of His Son. The image of holiness and yieldedness to the Father. The image of love for one another and self sacrifice.

We do however see examples of those who have NOT been predestined for conformation to the Son. Hereunder examples:

Romans 9
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And again...

Romans 9

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

So we see that this is entirely within the purview of God and his decision. So we can see that your last statement may not entirely be correct on this front. God knows who is the Elect and who will be ultimately saved. He has the full view of not only time, but His plan for mankind.

But here is the important point. WE DO NOT KNOW THE ELECT. And it is better that way. All will be revealed in future.

Chris1975 · Dec 26, 2019

Deade said:

Actually, you clarified nothing. You can jumble and rearrange the words predestined, called, conformed, justified, and glorified but you can't make them say something else. Yes, choice and predestination are very real but not fully understood. We are chosen for the first-fruits church from the foundation of the world.

Eph. 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

We can't call something for certain, until God is completely done with us all. Every man has his predestined time to be called. We don't have to understand everything, He is doing, and we won't until we are with Him. When we have the right mindset, we won't feel the need to interpret every scripture. Some things might not be for us in this age. It is okay to leave some scripture unsettled, for now. View attachment 208863

Yes. I believe you have it right.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 26, 2019

Deade said:

Well since God says He has done it all, you are doubting Him.

garee · Dec 26, 2019

Chris1975 said:

I would think if you are called you are chosen .He gives us ears to make it possible.

He does not promote it but does by his mercy over look it as apart of his finished work of suffering as the lamb of God. . Like David said in the Psalms. .if he was to take into account one transgression how could we stand before his throne of grace and receive mercy?

Psalm 130:3-5 King James Version (KJV) If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. I wait for the Lord, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning. Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

We fear him because with him their is plenty of redemption enough to go around the calling to repent in regard to His children who have denied his faith. Knowing he cannot deny himself if he has begun the good work in us that he will finish it . As in all thing Christ has first eminence doing the first works in us by which we can believe. He by calling repents us by turning him with his comforting words so that in turn we can ease our selves and hope to put away the childish things of mature mankind

The word repent has the idea to turn in order to ease oneself of pain. Not just turn to do nothing from nothing.

Jeremiah 31:17-19 King James Version (KJV) And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 26, 2019

Chris1975 said:

That would not apply to anyone who is truly justified by grace through faith. So let's look at that passage again:

PREDESTINATION BEGINS WITH DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE
For whom he did foreknow...

GOD PREDESTINES FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE, BUT NOT FOR SALVATION
He also did predestinate...

THE SAINTS SHALL BE PERFECTED TO RESEMBLE CHRIST AT THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
...to be conformed to the image of his Son...

THE CHILDREN OF GOD WILL RESEMBLE THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD
...that He might be the firstborn among many brethren...

PREDESTINATION BEGINS WITH THE GOSPEL CALL
...Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called...

THOSE WHO OBEY THE GOSPEL ARE JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
...and whom he called, them he also justified...

THE JUSTIFIED ONES SHALL EVENTUALLY BE GLORIFIED
...and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

ForestGreenCook · Dec 27, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Your Caption; GOD PREDESTINES FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE, BUT NOT FOR SALVATION. Eph 1: 5 says; God predetermined that those he choose would be adopted as his children by Jesus Christ. That sounds like eternal salvation to me.

Locoponydirtman · Dec 27, 2019

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 NASB

John seems to think that you should, he wrote some things concerning so that you would know.

Locoponydirtman · Dec 27, 2019

Confound it, conflusted bebotheration. I didn't pay attention to who the authored this thread or I would not have read it.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 27, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

"having predestined us unto 'son-placement' [divine-adoption-OF-SONS]"... (which is not the same kind of "adoption" WE think of, where a child outside of the family is brought into your family... but where the "full-grown-son [of one's own]" is bestowed the "full rights to act in his father's name" which is what Jesus had [note the words of the Father at His/Jesus' baptism]... and we have in a LEGAL/positional sense [ONLY by means of our "connection with Christ"] the moment we are "born [born-again/-from-above]" even as "new-born babes in Christ"--that is, in a LEGAL/positional sense... that is never severed... and which will be operative in a fuller sense once Romans 8:23 takes place [at "our Rapture" point in time])... So this is "eternal" and not a temporary, "iffy" thing.

PERMANENT.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 27, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

"Adoption as children" (which is not even the same as adoption as commonly understood, since believers are genuine children of God) is not the same as chosen to be justified by grace through faith (salvation and the gift of eternal life).

Those who are justified are born again, and those who are born again are "born of God", hence children of God. Which means that this verse is telling us that those who would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ would also become children of God, heirs, of God, and joint heirs with Christ. Thus biblical adoption means placing the individual in the position of legal heir, with all the privileges of an heir. And therefore God has reserved an eternal inheritance in Heaven for the saints.

Election 101

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