John 3:16-18 is not about God's universal love (there is no such thing).

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eternally-gratefull

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#81
#81
selfdissolving said:
it is the actual work of Christ on the cross which purchased our salvation. The atonement itself. not our work of choosing to believe.
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it is not a work to believe, its Gods work in our lives, which brings us to repentance, which causes us to be as the tax collector.

as Jesus said, it is the work of God we believe. God will not force his gift on us, he wants us to trust him

also, you're wrenching the Scripture out of context and misapplying it. The unpardonable sin is attributing the works of God to the devil. The Pharisees were guilty of this because they said that Jesus performed his miracles by the power of Beelzebub.
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thats no different that unbelievers attributing the work of God in salvation to someone else. To blaspheme is,to dissent or disagreement hence call god a liar,

The person who believes this can never be forgiven because not only do they have unbelief concerning the person and work of Jesus Christ, but have actually gone from simple unbelief to a conscious believe,

that God is evil.

A person who believes that God is the devil will NEVER trust in the Lord nor submit to him!
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i agree

just like a person who denies Christ is called an anitichrist. And will never be forgiven.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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#82
Sep 8, 2018
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#82
Good OP. I just spoke about this topic in another thread, IMA POST IT here too since its KINDA related:

"Hate the sin not the sinner"

^Aaand this is hinduism not Christianity. Quote from Gandhi, yet I see it quoted by Christians as if its a good thing. Psalms 5:5 says God hates ALL workers of iniquity. John 3:16 does in NO WAY contradict Psalm 5:5, it simply means God loved the world and gave His son so that whosoever believes in Him wont perish. But UNTIL they do believe on Him, they are under God's wrath, this same doctrine is revealed in the new testament Romans 1:18 and Ephesians 2:1ff and further in the SAME CHAPTER in John 3 thats often quoted to prove "God loves everyone and God hates the sin not the sinner" non sense. John 3:36 says God's wrath REMAINS(still) on them, WHY? Cause they dont believe/obey the Son

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

SAME CHAPTER as John 3:16!!! Get a hold of that one everyone!

All this trip about love and not judging is DESTROYING Christianity from within! God is love and we are not to judge.......... UNRIGHTEOUSLY, we are to first take the beam out of our own eye and THEN we can see to judge rightly, that quote is never finished by people, TICKS ME OFF! We are to JUDGE THE ANGELS one of these days!
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#83
Oct 25, 2018
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#83
eternally-gratefull said:
Jesus said it himself

all sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven, but blasphemy against the spirit shall never be forgiven

jesus paid the penalty of sin, but he did not pay the price for unbelief, in unbelief, we declare the HS, who gave us the word and convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, as Paul said in romans, no one has an excuse because they all know God, but have chosen to reject him
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You just limited the atonement my friend. ;)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#84
#84
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
You just limited the atonement my friend. ;)
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Nope

its unlimited it’s offered to all

but God will not force it on anyone.

if you reject it, it’s not Gods fault. He still offered it,
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#86
Apr 22, 2013
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#86
Flint321 said:
Hello, fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, saved objects of eternal just wrath to grace.

Here is what John 3:16-18 is really saying and implying, alot of people have it wrong and its important.

John 3:16-18 (the text itself)
16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


Here is a Paraphrase:

(Paraphrase: express the meaning of (something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity)

Paraphrase:
GOD + LOVE + WORLD, World being: not just Israel, but also GENTILES.....indeed.... the Jews believed that the world was cursed by God and they were God's people, its quite to shock to Nicodemus the Pharisee........That God loves is to the world and not just Chosen Israel.

So WORLD doesn't mean universalism (false sinful doctrine), its talking about God's LOVE to the WORLD (not just Israel).

Okay, continuing on... God's LOVE is manifested in the cross THAT.. [THE ALL WHO BELIEVE] should not perish but have eternal life, that's correct! AKA the ALL who are believing, there is no WHOSOEVER in the greek...

Its the ONES that BELIEVE, which denotes a group... aka all the believing ones, like i said, there is NO WHOSOEVER in the text, its a bad word to use, so when you read that word you might think....... that MAN can believe and repent outside the elect grace of GOD, which is not true.

Anyway continuing: Verse 17: For God did not send his SON into the world to condemn the world, this is what they believed (the Jews), that God has come to bless them and curse the gentiles, BUT Jesus is saying NO....... I did not come to CONDEMN but to save the World (the world being not just Israel)... then to finish it up he says..... Verse 18: whosoever..... which is not implying that everyone can believe, but that THE EVERYONE WHO IS BELIEVING.... there is a difference.

Everyone who is believing shall be saved and SO this in no way contradicts or destroys election (we know only the elect do believe, believing is the result of the new birth and the new birth is the result of God's election).

So the point is that God doesn't Love the WHOOOOLEE WORLD........Its not implying that!.......WORLD does not mean every individual of the world that has every existed........ something that is a contradiction of much of the bible!....... aka Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

If God loves the whole world, then the whole world would be saved.... duuuuurrrrr....

Anyway enjoy. I hope its a help to you in Christ, i also hope this is an encouragement for Calvinistic-Brothers/Sisters an edification and also a help to Arminians-Brothers/Sisters to see their error in this area and repent.
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Before I get too far deep in this thing, am I right in saying you believe God's born again children can do, or not do something, that can result in Him tossing His born again children into hell?
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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#87
Nov 17, 2015
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#87
ForestGreenCook said:
Our Spirit led choices only come after we are born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2, When we were still dead (spiritually) in sins and unable to respond to the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14. The natural man has no choice in becoming spiritual, and therefore, has no choice in his eternal deliverance. Only his sheep will hear his voice.
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If you are unable to respond to the things of the Spirit, then how is someone born again? How do you know you are one of his sheep?

Thanks
 
TooFastTurtle

TooFastTurtle

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#88
Apr 10, 2019
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#88
fredoheaven said:
If you are unable to respond to the things of the Spirit, then how is someone born again? How do you know you are one of his sheep?

Thanks
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They say that the people are only able to respond after God changes their hearts, people are born again when God decides to do it and faith is only the evidence of being born again. You know you are His sheep if you believe and follow Him.

That is what I heard from reputable Calvinist preachers

The change of heart thing is particularly interesting, considering Saul had his heart changed and it did not seem to do him no good because he still chose to disobey. He still had a will contrary to God, it seems.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#89
Jan 13, 2016
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#89
fredoheaven said:
If you are unable to respond to the things of the Spirit, then how is someone born again? How do you know you are one of his sheep?

Thanks
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And when is the body of Christ ever referred to as sheep? Nowhere does Paul call the believers sheep. This is a Jewish term for the nation of Israel and Jesus being their shepherd, their promised Messiah.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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#90
eternally-gratefull said:
Nope

its unlimited it’s offered to all

but God will not force it on anyone.

if you reject it, it’s not Gods fault. He still offered it,
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You said the Christ did not atone for the sin of unbelief. Your words, not mine my friend. Also, no one avers God forces salvation on anyone. That’s your side of the debate saying we believe that when, in fact, we don’t.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#91
Oct 25, 2018
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#91
eternally-gratefull said:
Nope

its unlimited it’s offered to all

but God will not force it on anyone.

if you reject it, it’s not Gods fault. He still offered it,
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Here’s what you posted...


but he did not pay the price for unbelief,
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He did not atone for the sin of unbelief. You just limited the atonement my friend.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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#92
Sep 8, 2018
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#92
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
You said the Christ did not atone for the sin of unbelief. Your words, not mine my friend. Also, no one avers God forces salvation on anyone. That’s your side of the debate saying we believe that when, in fact, we don’t.
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Is Reformed theology too complicated or have people just dumbed themselves down by watching too much TV?

I think a THIRD OPTION is the most likely: People have HEARD misrepresentations of Reformed theology and KEEP PARROTING IT with cool one liners.
 
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Guojing

Banned
#93
Jan 12, 2019
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#93
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Here’s what you posted...




He did not atone for the sin of unbelief. You just limited the atonement my friend.
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You need someone with an open mind to accept that everyone believes in some form of limited atonement.

For most of us, we believe it is unlimited in scope but limited by our free choice.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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Dec 28, 2016
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#95
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Here’s what you posted...




He did not atone for the sin of unbelief. You just limited the atonement my friend.
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If Jesus “didn’t pay the price for the sin of unbelief” then an unbeliever can never be forgiven for unbelief. “Oh, but if they believe, then their sin of unbelief is forgiven!” Nope. Jesus didn’t pay for the sin of unbelief, remember? And if it were never atoned for, it can never be forgiven.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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#96
fredoheaven said:
If you are unable to respond to the things of the Spirit, then how is someone born again? How do you know you are one of his sheep?

Thanks
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Eph 2 tells us that we were still dead, spiritually, in sins until we are regenerated and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Before he formed the earth, eph 1, he choose an elect people and predetermined them to be adopted as his children by Jesus paying the adoption price on the cross. Sometime in the life of his elect children God regenerates them and gives them the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14.. If you are able to discern the things of the Spirit, you have been regenerated and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and are able to discern the things of the Spirit, which is evidence that you are of the elect. Only his elect are regenerated.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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#97
preacher4truth said:
If Jesus “didn’t pay the price for the sin of unbelief” then an unbeliever can never be forgiven for unbelief. “Oh, but if they believe, then their sin of unbelief is forgiven!” Nope. Jesus didn’t pay for the sin of unbelief, remember? And if it were never atoned for, it can never be forgiven.
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Sadly they can’t and/or won’t see this. :(
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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selfdissolving said:
We either have a contradiction of Scripture here, or one of us is misinterpreting the Bible.
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Your pretense of not understanding why sinners perish was elaborately contrived.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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#100
Guojing said:
You need someone with an open mind to accept that everyone believes in some form of limited atonement.

For most of us, we believe it is unlimited in scope but limited by our free choice.
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The scriptures support the fact that God has given mankind a free choice as to how mankind wants to live his life here on earth, but mankind will not choose to serve a spiritual God, 1 Cor 2:14, until he has been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man for man's acceptance. Although God has given man a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, His eternal deliverance is not made by man's choice, but by the grace of God, without man's acceptance. Eph 2.
 
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