WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

I agree with you, it can be trying at times but our duty is to put forth truth, plant that seed of truth, give it some water, and the rest is up to God. Hopefully people pray to God to open their eyes to HIS TRUTHS. For me it is the "stopping" of the discussion I find to be very difficult. I want to "convince" but I try to remember "if they wouldn't hear Jesus when he was here in the flesh", I stand no chance so then I do my job and move on. I don't want to break the commands given about "strife and debate ect." and I certainly understand why those were given. If we do not share what has been given us, we will be given no more. That is terrifying to me.

They most likely will not change right now but when in the future they hear the Holy Spirit speaking through Gods elect, these discussions may be called to remembrance and save them from 1000 yrs of being apart from Christ. That is why God gave us the prophets.


Ezekiel 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. (lots of people "think" they are gentiles come to Christ and never realize that coming to Christ makes them of the House of Israel, Christs body)

Ezekiel 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned also thou hast delivered thy soul.

So it is not for us to convince, just warn. Hopefully that helps.

As for living "last day", I don't ever see a last day, (a last day stuck in this flesh body, yes, but no last day). I look forward to shedding this flesh. I think people see death of the flesh as "the end" when it is really just a transition. What we have chosen to learn of God comes with us. Some, when they change will bring with them His Truth, some will arrive and be naked, having nothing because they went with "mans doctrines" which make them "feel safe now" but the reality of Gods Word, God Plan they have very little of, how sad that will be. We are given a once in a lifetime (and I mean lifetime as in 6000 years plus) opportunity to really be SOMEONE who is willing to put their love of God where their heart and mind is and to stand up for God in the face of evil. To be willing to be someone God can COUNT on, someone God can use, someone who loves God more than their own flesh. Not to mention God gives us power over all our enemies, His enemies. I'll leave it there. So fight the good fight, and fight it Gods way, in love with the wisdom and knowledge he sent us.

Satan is bound for 1000 years. So the Day of vengeance is 1000 years, and starts when Christ returns, just like the book says. Many want to "extend" that day to include the tribulation of Satan period, convincing others that there will be "physical" death and mayhem on the earth at that time but

How did Satans tempting and seduction of Adam and Eve go??? How did Satans tempting of Christ go??? Are those our examples or not? Is Satan the "anti" as in "opposite" of Christ or "anti" and in the "opposition" to Christ? What is it that Satan wants? To sit on the mercy seat. He wants to be worshipped as if he were God. But he is an imitator. The whole world worships after him BECAUSE HE IS A DECEIVER and he convinces the world through deception and flatteries. He will make the world BELIEVE he is "Christ returned" with supernatural signs and wonders. If He were going around butchering people NO ONE WOULD BELIEVE HIM and he couldn't convince anyone of anything and that would also render GODS WORD false.

When does sudden destruction come?? WHEN YOU HEAR PEACE AND SAFETY. So the world BELEIVES it is a time of "peace". Does that sound like the population is being decimated to you?? but Satan can't bring a "true peace", can't give anyone "true safety". The deaths during the tribulation will be of the "SPIRITUAL" KIND. The death will be to the "virginity" you once had, having taken "no other gods before me" and to the virginity you are to have kept for the Bridegroom who is coming 'IN THE NIGHT', that is where death will be found. Because you believed a LIE.

Not knowing the order of events and the difference between the tribulation and the wrath that is poured out and trying to combine them is just another way of trying to make Gods word fit into mans doctrine. How many different ways, how many different verses do you have to change the meanings of before you one day say "this can't be right"? The way you read the Bible nothing written is what is really being said. Overcome doesn't mean overcome. endure to the end doesn't mean endure to the end. the apostasy comes first doesn't mean the apostasy comes first. companion in tribulation doesn't mean companion in tribulation. tribulation followed by wrath is actually all wrath. I have foretold you all things doesn't mean I have foretold you all things. Do not be deceived does not mean do not be deceived. One body doesn't mean one body. And how you reconcile this

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

I'll never know.

I can't possibly answer your entire post in one small setting , but I can start to provide explanation in small measures. So here is a couple of thoughts to chew on (at least, the readers can, if they so choose):

First of all, about the phrase "the day of vengeance"... I do not believe it refers to "a singular 24-hr day" (nor to "the MK age" which I see as "the Day of Rest"/the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9, or "the third day" of Hosea 5:15-6:3).

So in view of the "vengeance" part, consider the following (keeping in mind that "this present age [singular]" that we exist in NOW is the time of "the word of His patience" and "the patience OF CHRIST"):

Luke 18:8a [see also chpt 17 end] -

"I say to you that He will execute their avenging in quickness [noun]."


Romans 16:20a -

"And the God of peace will crush Satan under *your* feet in quickness [noun]"


Revelation 1:1a[22:6] - [parallel the timing also in 1:19c/4:1 (7:3)--which is the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book] -

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him [/unto Jesus] to show to His bond-servants [see 7:3] what things it behooves to take place [/things which must come to pass; <--compare this phrase with 1:19c and 4:1 (i.e. the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book)] in quickness [noun]. [...]" (not things which will unfold over the course of some 2000 yrs, nor things which would take place "immediately [adverb]" nor "soon [adverb]" but "in quickness [noun]," same time period as in Lk18:8 and Rom16:20--a relatively short amount of time [and that which "fits" between 4:1 and chpt 19's "RETURN" of Him to the earth (i.e. the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book)])

And when we see that the SEALS of Rev6 are the equivalent of "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse (and that these are just "the BEGINNING" of them), we can conclude also that the SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS all "fit" within that "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book of Rev), and can see that these do not unfold over the course of merely "a singular 24-hr day," but that they DO commence when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6 [Lam2:3-4 paralleling the language in 2Th2:7b-8a]) and opens SEAL #1 at the START of the specific, future, limited time period commonly called "the [7-yr] tribulation period (aka "the 70th Week"), being "kicked off" [/started] with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 (Rev6:2 rider on the wht horse with a bow ['bow' often meaning DECEPTION]); 1Th5:2-3] with many more "birth PANGS [plural]" that will follow on from that INITIAL birth PANG (all falling WITHIN that "in quickness [noun]" time period... when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [and "AVENGE"... "in quickness [noun]" (the 7-yrs of "SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS" in the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book of Rev)])

[continued in next post]

[continued from previous post]

2 Thessalonians 2 -

--Verse 1 is speaking of our Rapture (in this verse's two phrases)

--Verse 2, Paul is telling them (basically) not to believe anyone trying to convince them that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" (the Day of the Lord is defined as "an earthly period-of-time [not lasting merely 24-hrs] of JUDGMENTs FOLLOWED by a period-of-time [not lasting merely 24-hrs] of BLESSINGs")

--Verse 3, Paul is saying "that day [the earthly time period FROM VERSE 2] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [the event FROM VERSE 1] *FIRST* (and the man of sin BE REVEALED--which is at the START of the DOTL time period [SEAL #1 / the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5; 1Th5:2-3 (SINGULAR)])


[note: this SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in this passage, and is the SAME SEQUENCE shown in 1Th4-5]



Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon [1895] says, "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis"...

-- apo stasis = "apo [G575] =away" & "stasis [G4714] =a standing" [^ same word there ^] = "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or "a DEPARTURE" (context determines just "WHAT KIND" of "DEPARTURE" is meant)...



See also Hebrews 9:8-9a -

G4714 - stasin/stasis is used in a NEGATIVE sense, in 8 of its 9 occurrences (and there meaning [or, usages], "a rebel, revolutionist,...an insurrection, dissension, strife, uproar, a popular uprising, controversy");


but HERE, in its 9th occurrence ONLY, is NOT [negative], but means "A STANDING"

(in the context of a verse stating "the *first* tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per context] yet having A STANDING [G4714]: Which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME...")

^ One thing to keep in mind when grasping God's overall plans, "it's not all about you [and me]".


We have a bad habit of "reading *ourselves* INTO" passages that are not necessarily "about US [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY (the 'ONE BODY')]"

(the "10 Virgins [plural]" parable, for example, is NOT who He is coming TO MARRY)

too complex

maybe this: Jesus will return soon to judge the living and the dead. easy

I don't respect anyone's position who believe that the Lord is going to send His bride through His wrath and then gather them later. God's wrath is not meant for the church, because Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on our behalf.

Indeed, we should continue to always be ready to give an answer to those who has ask us about the hope that we have. But, we should also be watching and ready for the blessed hope, the imminent return of the Lord, as He promised.

Simply because the number given in scripture is 144,000, not 144,002. This group represents 12,000 Israelites from each of the twelve tribes. The two witness are two separate entities from the 144,000, who will be prophesying in the streets of Jerusalem and bringing every kind of plague, as often as they want. Though both the 144,000 and the two witnesses are servants of God, they will have two different missions.


The timing of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are both apart of end-time events.

Anyone who is believing and teaching that the church must first go through God's wrath before they are gathered, then they are not watching, but are watching for God's wrath instead. There's no way around this. Those who believe in a post tribulation gathering of the church, cannot also believe in the imminent return of the Lord, because according to post-tribbers, God's wrath must come first.

I don't hear you whining coz you can't be an "Old Testament saint"--"waaaah, but I wanna be!!"

uh, that would be dumb. You can't be one, coz you were not in existence then; those people were in existence at that time, YOU were NOT; so you cannot be one (as "complicated" as that may sound to you!), even if you cry and whine and kick-and-scream to be one. lol

So my point regarding "when" (in time and history) a person has come to faith is lost on you. I get it.

I am not denying they (and we) are "all" saints, by the way. In case that went past you.

I don't believe "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" is the "bride/wife" of the Bridegroom; and I don't believe "the 10 Virgins [plural]" are who the Bridegroom intends to MARRY (or are you like some of my buddies who "excuse" their "desires to have 10 women at the same time" based on their misunderstanding of Jesus' words, there, eh?? thinking to themselves, well, JESUS is doing it!! )

I have a couple questions, cause it seems we were from these verses.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (shall return doesn't mean "shall return" either?)

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (unless "he did foreknow you don't think means "he did foreknow")

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? ("ALL THE SONS OF GOD SHOUTED FOR JOY doesn't mean "ALL THE SONS OF GOD SHOUTED FOR JOY" When was it when ALL the sons of God were together? Certainly never has happened while we have been in the flesh, has it?)

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (doesn't "before I formed thee in the belly I KNEW THEE mean "before I formed thee in the belly I KNEW THEE"?)

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (unless "angels which kept not their first estate doesn't mean "angels which kept not their first estate)

Where is it you think the fallen angels came from then? They left their habitation coming to earth to seduce women rather than waiting to be "born from above", "born of water" (womb), right?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Isn't that the cause of the "giants" and the flood of Noahs time?

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

And is that Pre Trib Rap EVER MENTIONED when the "coming or returning or Lords Day is mentioned"? It's like it doesn't exist at all in any of the rest of the Word. Every place I have gone seeking to find it, where I think "That would be a perfect place to slip it in", THERE IT ISN'T. This big huge world changing, life changing, heaven changing, more miraculous than the parting of the sea, unbelievably humongous event, and the only details we are given are "comes as a thief in the night" "keep you from" "are not appointed to"???? Not a single command given to the ELECT or the church of Smyrna on what to say or not to say BEFORE SATANS IMMENIENT ARRIVAL TO CONVINCE THE WORLD THAT HE IS CHRIST??? That's all we get from Our God who even tells us " Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together"??? Doesn't that all sit just flat out wrong to you?

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

You mean to say that you believe *we* existed before creation?

Do you mean that you believe the word that is used in Eccl12:7 which is also used in Gen6:17 means that those in this Gen6:17 verse (who were "destroyed") went to heaven?

Do you believe the word "fore-hoped" in Ephesians 1:12 means that *we* existed before time, and "hoped" at that point??

Who do you believe "the morning stars" are, who "sang together"??

So you believe Jeremiah existed "before time" did??

I am aware of one particular angel who wanted to "GO UP HIGHER" (and took some with him in that "aspiration", apparently)… as in setting his sights in his own 5 "I WILLs"... Is that what you mean??

You mean you believe [those created to be] "angels" are (or were supposed to be) "waiting to be born" of water (womb)?? hmm... interesting.

After the trib and 7 yrs after the Rapture

The dead are resurrected and judged after the mil

She acts like she is open or asking a question.

She is baiting.
She then proceeds to straighten her target out....with grand canyon leaps

Is it just me,or is there an acceleration in mis interpreting the 144k?
Lately there is a lot of mis labeling of the 144k

pretty much both are correct.

The ot saints secured justification with a later salvation by Jesus.

Thats the thing. God looks at all his children. Israel is a prodigal. She is also a "whore" or wayward wife.

The goal is one new man under christ.

It will be.