What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

I wanna ask all of y'all who believe in the pre trib rapture: Do yall believe in TWO peoples of God or ONE? I believe in ONE and because of that im always in trouble with the dispies because i just usually dont buy the 'thats talking to Israel' idea. Not only that when I hear 'according to jewish custom' or 'in jewish culture' I ALREADY prepare myself for OKAY THATS IT, some FALSE DOCTRINE is coming down the pipeline.

I ask that because if there is a pre tribber here who believes in ONE people of God, which is ALL PEOPLE OF FAITH Jews and Gentiles from creation to uncreation, does that do any damage to the pre trib teaching that the church kinda gets out of the way for Daniel's 70th week and all that?

The gt is jacobs trouble or israels trouble.

If the jews are not players then much of pauls writings are invalid,because he places the Jews as cut off but later grafted back in.
Paul even states that if he cut them off and grafted us gentiles in, to walk uprightly lest we be cut off also.

Beyond that,the 144k are definately Jewish descendants .
No doubt about it God is dealing with 2 covenant people.
You are thinking of salvation.
God is dealing with a harlot that he loves and is after. He is after them,not jumbling the harlot in with the gentile bride.

Ruth is a book of "kinsman redeemer"
Two players. One gentile,one Jew.

Rev 5 reveals the kinsman redeemer as a man...Jesus.

I appreciate the funny name changing. But the parable in Matthew 25:1-13 hardly fits a post-trib scheme, because I really do not need to be watching for the Lord's return anytime soon if post-trib Rapture is true, I really do not. Call me when the abomination of desolation occurs, that is when I start watching, before that it is just rumors and YouTube clickbait, once the abomination of desolation occurs and I see two witnesses, I can count 42 months from that point on, so much for watching and unexpected return, huh?

I agree that jews will get converted during the latter times. Difference is: I see them as JOINING the church. That one group of people God has

BLUTO QUOTE :"
, "But He answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you." And at vs13, "BE ON THE ALERT THEN, for you do not know the day or the hour." I also suggest you read the rest of Matthew 25 because Jesus is making the same point.

And as a side note, the 4 most lethal words in the Bible as far as I'm concerned can be found at Matthew 7:22,23, "Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Yor name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" vs23, "And then I will declare to them, "I NEVER KNEW YOU;" depart from Me."

LOL,2 separate dynamics that you recklessly combine.
He addresses the foolish virgins (saved believers) as "not known"...which you incorrectly attempt to blend into "never knew"..pssst that means "never saved".

Then you invoke the Holy Spirit while you smear those two oppostes together.

It is comical how postribs need so many changes in the 10 virgin parable.
You just did that.
Lol

I appreciate the funny name changing. But the parable in Matthew 25:1-13 hardly fits a post-trib scheme, because I really do not need to be watching for the Lord's return anytime soon if post-trib Rapture is true, I really do not. Call me when the abomination of desolation occurs, that is when I start watching, before that it is just rumors and YouTube clickbait, once the abomination of desolation occurs and I see two witnesses, I can count 42 months from that point on, so much for watching and unexpected return, huh?

Why would I call you, maybe I'll text you! You have at Matthew 24:3 three of the disciples asking, "What will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age/world?"

At Matthew 24:15 Jesus says, "Therefore (which means in light of what I said previously, verses 4-14) WHEN you see the Abomination of Desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). Understand what? What we are suppose to do from Matthew 24:16-28.

Then at vs29, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light etc. So here's the question for you? Between Matthew 24:15 and Matthew 24:29-31 where do you "INSERT" the rapture of the church?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

When you compare Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 both have the coming, both got a gathering and we got the timing of it, at the second coming.

When you compare Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 both have the coming, both got a gathering and we got the timing of it, at the second coming.

I believe thats how people in the FIRST CENTURY read it, if you was a believer and got yourself a letter from Paul and compared it to Matthew's record NO WAY JOSÉ would you think its two SEPARATE comings. This idea of "Oh thats to the jews" is a RECENT development and im not a fan of it.

And that is exactly why one needs to carefully compare these passages to see the differences. The fundamental truth is that at His Second Coming, Christ comes WITH His saints and angels from Heaven itself. There can be no denying this. But in order for that to happen, the saints must already have been in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb.

So when did all the saints enter Heaven? We look at 1 Thess 4:15-17 and we have the answer right there. This passage speaks of the Resurrection/Rapture, therefore 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 must be included. And there we see that the Resurrection/Rapture is *in the twinkling of an eye" (a fraction of a second). And this is where Christ comes FOR His saints.

And then compare that to the Second Coming where the whole unbelieving world sees Christ and the saints and angels coming, but definitely not in a nano-second, since every eye will see him and every person on earth will mourn in fear and trembling.

That argument ^ reminds me of those who say that the "occasion" in Matt26:6-13/Mk14:3-9/Jn12:1-8 and the one in Lk7:36-50 are one and the same simply because they BOTH use the phrase "an alabaster box of ointment" (and the events sound fairly similar).

https://www.gotquestions.org/alabaster-box.html

[one occasion or two separate occasions?]

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=an+alabaster+box+of+ointment&qs_version=KJV


Lame.

You can do better than that, Hevosmies

But the parable in Matthew 25:1-13 hardly fits a post-trib scheme, because I really do not need to be watching for the Lord's return anytime soon if post-trib Rapture is true, I really do not. Call me when the abomination of desolation occurs, that is when I start watching, before that it is just rumors and YouTube clickbait, once the abomination of desolation occurs and I see two witnesses, I can count 42 months from that point on, so much for watching and unexpected return, huh?

No issue there. Rapture and second coming can happen at the same time and saints can return with Jesus, no issue whatsoever.

Not that lame, considering thats how almost EVERYONE has interpreted it since forever. Not that much of a leap, its more of a leap to add a THIRD coming and differentiate between coming "in the sky" vs "to the earth" and make fancy charts. NOW THATS lame!

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You're telling me these are COMPLETELY two different events? OKAY THEN. What type of NERDS do you think they were in the early church?
Rapture is at the LAST TRUMPET, and if the trumpet in Thessalonians 4:16 is BEFORE Matthew 24:31 then it CANT BE the last trumpet. Matthew 24:31 would be the last one.

BY DEFINITION: LAST MEANS LAST, if there is one after that, IT WASNT LAST!

Gotta love eschatology! No two men agree (even in their own camps) and we are all right!

No, they cannot happen at the same time since two events will intervene between them: (1) the judgment of the works of the saints in Heaven and (2) the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven. See Revelation 19.

Not that lame, considering thats how almost EVERYONE has interpreted it since forever. Not that much of a leap, its more of a leap to add a THIRD coming and differentiate between coming "in the sky" vs "to the earth" and make fancy charts. NOW THATS lame!

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You're telling me these are COMPLETELY two different events? OKAY THEN. What type of NERDS do you think they were in the early church?

Rapture is at the LAST TRUMPET, and if the trumpet in Thessalonians 4:16 is BEFORE Matthew 24:31 then it CANT BE the last trumpet. Matthew 24:31 would be the last one.

(1) You might have a point I havent looked into that yet. (2) the marriage of the Lamb can happen in earth too, its announced in Rev 19 right before the second coming. Jesus says He wont drink the fruit of the vine until in the kingdom.

While you and I agree on much... HERE is one of the place where we don't see it the same way. I disagree that ANYTHING in Matthew 24-25 is speaking to the Subject of "our Rapture".

I believe "the beginning of birth PANGS" (Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11) are the EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6, and that it (that FUTURE time period [FUTURE even to our Rapture]) commences at SEAL #1 (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 / 1Th5:2-3 (SINGULAR)]"), when it ARRIVES like a thief "IN THE NIGHT" (thus the "NIGHT WATCHES" and the "LAMPS LIT" all speak of that which FOLLOWS our Rapture/THE Departure).

Some people believe that the "no man knows" (like Matt24:36) verses must refer to our Rapture, but I disagree and believe it is speaking of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (and NOT of our Rapture-time-slot); here's a post I just made elsewhere, providing explanation for that (bear in mind it was in the context of a DIFFERENT CONVO online):

[quoting that post]

Matthew 24:36 and its parallels are NOT speaking of our Rapture. I believe the pre-tribbers who say that it IS speaking of our Rapture are mistaken and are using it improperly (out of context).

Additionally, I do not believe the phrase means that no one CAN EVER know, or that no one WILL EVER know; for it is in the "perfect tense indicative," and that basically means that it has been true and will be true until something else comes along that changes that status, and that is what I believe occurred when Jesus ascended (at which time I believe HE NOW "KNOWS") and THEN some 60 yrs LATER supplied FURTHER INFORMATION regarding THAT Subject in "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass [<--compare that phrase with 1:19c and 4:1 (the FUTURE aspects of the Book)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" (speaking of the IN QUICKNESS [NOUN] time period that is the 7-yr trib/70th-Wk [yet FUTURE; and FUTURE to "our Rapture" event, taking into consideration other factors which I won't go into here]).

So, I believe everything in Matt24-25 speaks of that which takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture ("the beginning of birth PANGS" being equivalent to the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of that future 7-yr period), and point toward and lead UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (promised to Israel, and to which "GUESTS [/Gentiles]" will have been being "having been INVITED" [Rev19:9 (not v.7)] all DURING the trib yrs, on the earth [FOLLOWING our Rapture (we'll be UP THERE, during that time-frame)]). Matthew 24:36 speaks of THAT point in time (His Second Coming TO THE EARTH), but is not saying that "no one WILL EVER know, nor CAN EVER know" (Jesus now knows and has disclosed FURTHER INFORMATION on *THAT* very Subject [including a large amount of "timing-clues" and "time-stamps" and "numbers-of-days-durations" etc] in The Revelation [95ad]

[end quoting that post]


The FIRST "birth PANG" (Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 [/1Th5:2-3]) of many MORE "birth PANGS" that follow on from that one, is the equivalent of the FIRST SEAL (so we will not be here for even the FIRST SEAL which STARTS the trib yrs, and thus will not be present on the earth for anything in Matt24-25 which is speaking of the time period LEADING UP TO His 2nd Coming TO THE EARTH, in same). Make sense?

The "10 Virgins [PLURAL]" (or even the 5) are NOT who He is coming to MARRY. They "go in with [G3326] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" which is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth [see Lk12:36-37,38,40 also, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal!]

Why would I call you, maybe I'll text you! You have at Matthew 24:3 three of the disciples asking, "What will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age/world?"

At Matthew 24:15 Jesus says, "Therefore (which means in light of what I said previously, verses 4-14) WHEN you see the Abomination of Desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). Understand what? What we are suppose to do from Matthew 24:16-28.

Then at vs29, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light etc. So here's the question for you? Between Matthew 24:15 and Matthew 24:29-31 where do you "INSERT" the rapture of the church?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto