sabbath

The church of Christ was established at Pentecost. The Book of Acts chapter 2
The kingdom of God will be established at the second coming of Christ.
The Book of Daniel chapter 7
And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’

The Book of Revelation chapter 1 (a vision John had on Patmos on the Lord's day (Sabbath)

So is that a yes?

It seems like a yes.


This is your carnal interpretation of scripture and you have decided that the Lord has fulfilled some of what He came to fulfill but He is really NOT sitting at the right Hand of God because He still has a lot more stuff to come back and do.

He's just taking a break?


Let's imagine for a moment that the Lord Jesus ACTUALLY fulfilled EVERYTHING He said He was going to fulfill. Let's further imagine that the Kingdom of God doesn't come by observation (Like Christ ACTUALLY said) but the Kingdom of God is inside the people of the saints of the Most High God.


Where does this put the people who DEMAND that Christ DIDN'T fulfill all He said He would and the Kingdom DOES come by observation?

Its a lot of people, I think.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So when someone tells you that the Lord Jesus Christ already fulfilled EVERYTHING He said He would and that the Kingdom of God has been established in the Saints of the Most High and is continuing to be established, I suppose it will be met the same way Noah was met when people saw he was building an ark. With derision and pomposity.

To say that the Lord Jesus DID NOT fulfill the whole law is just unbelief. Its not something that can be studied out and figured out. It has to be revealed.

Luke 24:25-32
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?


Its funny how just about everyone who studies scripture seems to think that Christ can't come until such and such happens first and they are all waiting for the such and such. I say such and such because it is always something different with each person but it is ALWAYS some carnal thing that can be observed.


I will leave you with some small proofs.

You agree that the Passover was fulfilled by Christ? This is a jot and tittle, fulfilled by Christ.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

You probably don't agree that the Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ. But this is also a jot and tittle, fulfilled by Christ.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This is a definitive statement by Christ. If one jot or one tittle has passed from the law then our ONLY conclusion can be that ALL IS FULFILLED. Or we are contradicting Christ by saying that NOT All was fulfilled but Some of it was.

The kingdom of heaven is not come, even when God's will is our law; it is come when God's will is our will.

- George Macdonald

Yes

A lot of people like to say 'not one jot or tittle!' but what they really mean is some particular jots and tittles, to the exclusion of others.

I would suggest before you start levying accusations at me about my "carnal" interpretation, etc... that you actually bother to read scripture so as to appear able to enter into this discussion aptly.
This way you would not appear so ready to attack someone who does know the scripture, due to their knowing more than you appear to.

Not all has been fulfilled. If you knew anything about the Messiah prophecies you'd know this.
Jesus accomplished the covenant of grace and Salvation on the cross. However, not all has been fulfilled as pertains to prophecy.
And so as to preempt your next attack, no, I will not provide the scriptures that prove that.
I will not assist someone who values attack more than study. If you want to find out those facts, read the Bible as diligently as you sit at your keyboard and hope to levy ignorant pejoratives and insults toward the Christians here.

Are you proposing Amillennialism? Do you believe Christ is going to come physically, literally back to earth? The whole gospel, about the Kingdom of God, is what Christ was teaching. Not simply His life, death and resurrection. Plus, you keep mixing the ritual sacrificial ordinances with the rest of God's law. Not all is fulfilled yet.

I'll ask you: Are at rest in the Lord? I look forward to a rest in God's Kingdom. This world offers me little rest. Heb. 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." Again, all is not fulfilled.

You think my response was an attack? I suppose its just as silly as saying that Christ fulfilled some jots and tittles of the law but not all.

I suppose you can go back and re-read post 582 and try not to think of it as an attack so much as trying to fix some obvious error.

The world doesn't offer rest.

It is Christ that offers rest. But its a specific kind of rest. It is rest from your work at the law and your work at being Righteous before God by your own efforts.

All is fulfilled. Otherwise Rest could not be offered. And it could not be said that Christ sits at the right hand of the Father.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Are there people who labour at being Righteous before God by their own work at the law? Or will they only labour at being Righteous at some future time so as to fulfill your own philosophy of all not being fulfilled?


How can you understand scripture if you don't believe Christ? If the promises of God are all future events that cannot be attained until a person dies then what was accomplished at Calvary? Just the discontinuance of sacrificing of bulls and goats?

No, I don't think it would be worth my time. You prefer error and when faced with the pointed fact that you are in error you go on the offensive.
So be it.
God's word is eternal. Not so much our opinions of it.

The rest Jesus spoke of in Matt. 11:28 is freedom and victory over sin. Are you saying you don't think about the your reward for being in Christ after the resurrection? The whole wold is in bondage to their sinful flesh and are steered by the dark spirits. That is our rest today. What do you hope for in God's Kingdom? Do you even think about it?

I do not know of anyone that labors at being righteous, with the law or any way else. Everyone I know is saved by grace with faith in Christ. We still see God's Commandments as good and as pertinent today as ever. Do we do it to be saved? No, we are already saved. We just obey God.

I have noticed when we are faithful God uses that faith for works. Then you tell us we are trying to be saved by those works. That is simply not true. We delight in the law of God (Psalms 1) and feel it builds Godly character. Only if we have the right attitude toward it.

This may help as to Jesus words in Matthew and concerning , not one jot nor tittle.
Matthew 5:17-20 – A Thorough Investigation
January 1, 2015/by J.K. McKee
"According to Yeshua the Messiah’s words here in Matthew 5:17, delivered within His Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chs. 5-7, the Savior clearly states what His views are regarding the Torah of Moses. Along with Psalm 23 and the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17), Matthew 5-7 includes the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:2-12) and the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13), the four passages together composing the most frequently read and valued sections of the Bible for most evangelical Christians. Yeshua’s statements about the Torah are not at all hidden away in some obscure place. Jesus says very plainly that His purpose was not to “abolish” the Torah or Law of Moses, but to “fulfill” it. Gain a deeper understanding of Matthew 5:17-20 from a pro-torah perspective."



"...Indeed, why do many Christian theologians assert that Yeshua abolished the Torah or Law
of Moses, when all of the Messianic prophecies of the Tanach or Old Testament speak to the
contrary? Do these prophecies not tell us that when the Messiah comes to establish His Kingdom
that the Torah will fully go forth from Zion? One of the most important missional admonitions in
the Bible, which is also employed within the traditional Sabbath liturgy of the Jewish Synagogue,l
speaks of the Torah going forth to the nations and world peace being enacted:

“And it will come about in the last days that the mountain of the house of the LORD will
be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, and the
peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, ‘Come and let us go up to the
mountain of the LORD and to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach us about
His ways and that we may walk in His paths.’ For from Zion will go forth the law, even
the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between many peoples and
render decisions for mighty, distant nations. Then they will hammer their swords into
plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift up sword against
nation, and never again will they train for war” (Micah 4:1-3).

“Now it will come about that in the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will
be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the
nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, ‘Come, let us go up to the
mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us
concerning His ways and that we may walk in His paths.’ For the law will go forth from
Zion and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations,
and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into
plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against
nation, and never again will they learn war” (Isaiah 2:2-4).m

Prophecies such as these hardly sound like the Messiah coming to abolish the Law—
especially if the Messiah is to rule and reign over Planet Earth, and the Torah is to go forth from
Jerusalem! And more to the point: no good Bible teacher or theologian is ever going to honestly
argue against world peace.

Various Jewish Rabbis of the past century, as a result of interreligious dialogue, have
certainly been able to examine the New Testament as a valuable historical and philosophical text.
Many have properly recognized, at least from a factual perspective, that Jesus did not abolish the
Torah. Alfred J. Kolatch states the following in The Second Jewish Book of Why:

“During his career as preacher to his fellow Jews in Palestine, Jesus was careful to point
out that he had no intention of promoting the idea that observance of Jewish law should
be abandoned. The Synoptic Books of the Bible (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) portray Jesus
as a practicing Jew....Given Jesus’ portrayal as an observant Jew in the Synoptic Gospels,
the total abandonment of Jewish ritual by the Christian Church seems strange. It is
explained as an attempt by Church Fathers to draw a sharp distinction between Jew and
Christian and thereby strengthen the Church. The abandonment is also the result of the
great resistance encountered by Paul (and others) in his missionary activity among the
Gentile population outside of Palestine. Paul found himself unable to win converts to
Christianity when he insisted on adherence to biblical laws such as those pertaining to the
Sabbath, family, purity, and especially circumcision.”n

To Kolatch and many other Jewish teachers and researchers, their problem is not with
Jesus and His Torah observance. Rather, their problem is with Paul. Kolatch goes on and says, “Paul
condemned as his enemy those Christians who continued to follow the Old Jewish law of
circumcision, because by their actions, he said, they were shaking the faith of ignorant Christians
and were turning away Gentiles from the new message he brought them.”o

To only compound the complexity of this dilemma, it is not at all helpful when one witnesses the thoughts of a Christian
theologian like R.T. France, who in his Matthew commentary (NICNT 2007) actually says,
“Matthew took a very conservative line on legal observance, believing that the Christian disciple
was bound to continue to obey all the commandments of the Torah just as much as, or indeed
more meticulously than, those Jews who had not followed Jesus....If that is what Matthew
intended, the interpreter must face the fact that this teaching is out of step with the overall thrust
of NT Christianity and with the almost universal consensus of Christians ever since...”p

Many of the New Testament verses we will examine in this section of The New
Testament Validates Torah are found in the Pauline Epistles. We are not to interpret what Yeshua
says about the Torah in light of what we think Paul might say. Rather, we are to interpret and
examine the Apostle Paul’s words through the lens of what Yeshua the Messiah says! Paul himself
would agree with this. He wrote his disciple Timothy that Yeshua’s revelation and words on
matters remain primary, and that one’s doctrine must be in alignment with the Messiah’s doctrine:
“If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of
our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and
understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about
words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction
between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means
of gain” (1 Timothy 6:3-5).

Yeshua’s words in Matthew 5:17-19 about the Torah being valid instruction for His
followers, remain primary to whatever else is said in the Apostolic Scriptures (New Testament)
about the Law of Moses.q

You will find that it is not as difficult as you might think, to view
passages that may appear or have traditionally been interpreted as anti-Torah, to actually not be
anti-Torah. More than anything else, the pastor’s mistake and the mistake of many others, has
been in not carefully examining the relevant verses.

*Note* Bibliography notations throughout this excerpt are found at the source link*

Also as a separate thread, but for convenience. Link is attached to image. Includes link to Mp3 audio of article.

The whole world is not in bondage to their sinful flesh and steered by dark spirits.

Only those who have not come to Christ.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

That is present tense. Not talking about some future time.

Deade said:

I do not know of anyone that labors at being righteous, with the law or any way else. Everyone I know is saved by grace with faith in Christ. We still see God's Commandments as good and as pertinent today as ever. Do we do it to be saved? No, we are already saved. We just obey God.

Click to expand...

The whole world that you view as in bondage to sin and steered by dark spirits doesn't want to be righteous instead?

Christians are just fine with their bondage to sin and will just wait until they are dead and hope for something else after that?


If you see the 10 commandments as good and pertinent then what were you saved from? You don't really believe in Salvation right now, do you? You believe Salvation occurs after you die.

This is starting to make sense to me now.


Deny that Christ has fulfilled the law so that you can continue in your own way of bondage and preach Salvation and the Kingdom of God is not for right now, but is instead some philosophical "saved by grace", and its after you die. But if you are wrong, and Salvation and the Kingdom of God IS for right now then that error could have eternal consequences. Not sure if you can see that or not.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

It is continuing to place yourself under the law that is the reason you think the whole world is in bondage to sin.

But if you come to Christ and receive Rest from your work at the law you will be under Grace and sin will no longer have dominion over you.

But you don't want rest from your work at the law. You like your work at the law. There is no reason to work for Salvation because there is no such thing as Salvation until after you die. So you can only do as good as your work at the law will allow. To build "godly" character, as if that were possible.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


God doesn't choose those who did the "best" at working at the 10 commandments. He chooses those who have faith in Christ and are given Rest from their work at the 10 commandments.

You can't have faith in Christ and work at the 10 commandments at the same time. That is a contradiction. You can't be Gods Workmanship and your own workmanship at the same time. That is a contradiction. You have to choose one or the other.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Hebrew roots movement? do you belong to that?

So, you are trying to tell me there is no such thing as godly character? We do not work at the law, we just meditate on it.
No.

No argument there. However, there is no thing wrong with taking the day that God made for us to spend time in the word, with The Word. It is a personal choice in this relationship with the almighty. Who can gainsay it if someone chooses to honor the Sabbath God made just for them. (us)?
(Answer. Plenty, clearly, and some are incredibly dedicated to telling us we're wrong and why they think so. Who would ever listen to such as that? Really. It's "my" (impersonal my) Sabbath with my Lord. And I'm going to stop observing that day God made for "me", because "you" (impersonal you) don't approve? )