What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

The phrase "from the faith" must be ADDED to the word itself BECAUSE that idea is not INHERENT in the word (by itself).

The basic meaning of the word is "a departure / a departing" (or, "a standing away from [from a previous standing]")... It is up to the context to inform of just "WHAT KIND" of DEPARTURE is meant.

And since there is a "definite article ['the']" with this word (which otherwise is NOT required, for this word), it draws our att'n to the REASON for it HERE (and the Greek grammar guys point out several REASONS for the use of a "definite article" and ONE reason is that it is pointing BACK to something ALREADY MENTIONED [and ALREADY-KNOWN UNTO] the recipients...

BOTH epistles refer to the "Rapture" [event] using a VARIETY of different words and phrases, NOT JUST the ONE in 1Th4:17! but something like TEN TIMES!! [not once had Paul "previously mentioned" TO THE THESSALONIANS *anything* re: "departure FROM THE FAITH" or "SOME FAITH ISSUE" but previously IN THIS PASSAGE *HAD* mentioned OURS/OUR DEPARTURE!, in VERSE 1!! (the SUBJECT BEING COVERED!--*when* it takes place IN RELATION TO the presence [/arrival] of the DOTL! earthly time period of JUDGEMENTS])])

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

bluto said:

The phrase there is "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (not the end of the WORLD).

I already said that they are the same thing [time-slot]: His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (FOR the MK age, which is known as "the age [singular] to come," per Matt12:32 (and what THEY understood RIGHTLY, to be [what WE call] "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age")

"The Last Day" is the 7th Millennium (not a "singular 24-hr day")

Nope. The angels will "REAP" at "the end [singular] of the AGE [singular]"... THIS is NOT "our Rapture"

bluto · Dec 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Let me clarify what your saying. Your saying the rapture is before the events of Matthew 24, is that correct?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 5, 2019

bluto said:

I had mentioned:

--"the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6; the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5; 1Th5:2-3]" being at the START of the 7-yr trib [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that FOLLOWS the 1:19B "things which ARE"... (so the 1:19c/4:1 [1:1, 22:6] is speaking of the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, the things which FOLLOW "the things which ARE" [<--these are not said to be "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... ONLY the things which shall be "AFTER THESE [THINGS]" are what is said "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. the 7-yr trib yrs);

--"the DOTL" ARRIVES like a "thief IN THE NIGHT" and is like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that "COMES UPON" as woman with child/in labor (it is not the SOLE "birth PANG"... but many MORE *FOLLOW* on from that INITIAL ONE); the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" is the EQUIVALENT OF the FIRST SEAL--aka, the "whose COMING/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE[/parousia]" of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME (the "IN THE NIGHT" / "DARK/DARKNESS" time period; i.e. the 7-yr trib [parallel to what Dan9:27a[26] shows; with v.27 ALSO covering ALL THREE PARTS OF the trib yrs: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END, same as 2Th2 chpt shows! ALL THREE in EACH PASSAGE!])

--so, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 (the "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (a certain one bringing DECEPTION) as the FIRST SEAL in the BEGINNING/START of "the DOTL [time period]" cannot be present until "THE DEPARTURE [OF US, IN THE RAPTURE]"... correct! ALL of Matt24 is FOLLOWING our Rapture! Because the Olivet Discourse is NOT covering the Subject of our Rapture AT ALL (per context); it is covering that same "FUTURE" aspects of "[The] Revelation" [1:19c/4:1, 1:1/22:6 (7:3, the 144,000), i.e. chpts 6-19 (chpts 4-5 are the scene IN HEAVEN just before He opens the FIRST SEAL [which kicks off the 7-yr trib])]

Hope that helps you see my perspective. I could say much more... by I will spare your eyesight. lol

presidente · Dec 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

The rapture occurs at the parousia, the coming of the Lord.
I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [parousian] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

II Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia]:

This is the same Greek word (infected for grammar of course.)

There will be members of the church alive at Jesus coming (see verse 15.) Pre-trib rapture has the rapture occurring seven years before the Lord's coming, unlike I Thessalonians 4:15.

The rapture occurs at Jesus' coming according to I Thess. 4:15-16. In II Thessalonians 2:8, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of his coming. Pre-trib has the church out of here before the man of sin is even revealed. But taking the passages together, the church is here on earth when he is destroyed.

Too many caps makes posts hard to read and follow.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 6, 2019

^ and I've mentioned in past posts (per other threads, perhaps) that both "parousia" and "erchomai" are used for both the time of our rapture [in the air] and the time of His second coming to the earth.

so that, "parousia" depends on the context, as to where He is, and in whose presence He is (or, who it is that is in His presence, there--in whatever context, whichever one of these two).

when our rapture takes place, He will only be in the presence of "the church which is His body" [in the air] and no one else, and we [alone] in His presence.

at the time of His second coming to the earth, is the first time [in the chronology] that "every eye shall see Him" ...this is at the time of His "return"... to the earth, for the MK age to commence.

things that are different are not the same.

… and we are called to distinguish the things that differ and to "correctly apportion the word of truth"

2Th2:1 is our rapture

presidente · Dec 6, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

^ and I've mentioned in past posts (per other threads, perhaps) that both "parousia" and "erchomai" are used for both the time of our rapture [in the air] and the time of His second coming to the earth.

so that, "parousia" depends on the context, as to where He is, and in whose presence He is (or, who it is that is in His presence, there--in whatever context, whichever one of these two).

when our rapture takes place, He will only be in the presence of "the church which is His body" [in the air] and no one else, and we [alone] in His presence.

at the time of His second coming to the earth, is the first time [in the chronology] that "every eye shall see Him" ...this is at the time of His "return"... to the earth, for the MK age to commence.

things that are different are not the same.

… and we are called to distinguish the things that differ and to "correctly apportion the word of truth"

2Th2:1 is our rapture

Your just redefinine terms and reinterpreting passages to fit with your preconceived idea. Where is the passage that actually presents a pre-trib rapture or teaches it to justify that sort of thing.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 6, 2019

presidente said:

note what I said in the last two posts of mine.

"parousia" is used for both time-slots (it depends on location and in whose presence He purposes to be);

and that v.8a is telling *when* he will be revealed (that's the "and then [kai tote]" words in relation to the previous thought);

v.8b is just telling *WHOM* the Lord SHALL destroy (at the END of the trib; not at the beginning/start of the trib when he is to be revealed).

you are wanting to mish-mash the two together, without regard to other factors in the passage, in the wider context, and in the overall chronology and timing clues provided, and so forth.

7 yrs before His "return-to-the-earth/presence [before ALL]"; not 7 yrs before "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [in the air; no one else present there! the unsaved will not "see" Him then, He will NOT be in their presence, nor they His!]

Correct (the bold is correct).

The only reason you do not want to accept it, is by disregarding some of the chronology and by your insisting that "parousia" only happens once, when EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM.

[oops, got carried away with those "caps" again. lol]

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 6, 2019

presidente said:

--verse 1 is our rapture;

--verse 2 is Paul telling them not to be convinced by anyone telling then that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" ("the Day of the Lord" is biblically defined as: a-period-of-time-of-judgments-followed-by-a-period-of-time-of-blessings [ALL earthly-located]" and is the same time-period as the phrase "in that day" when these are used in close proximity throughout the Bible--chk that out; it is NOT defined as "a singular 24-hr day"... it lasts from the start of the 7-yr trib to the end of the 1000-yr reign of Christ on the earth (i.e. the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT/SUNDOWN," and also the "SUN-of-righteousness-ARISE," and also the FULL LIGHT OF DAY/"reign...GLORIOUSLY"--all 3 of those aspects. So Paul is talking about the START of it... (the TRIB aspect of the DOTL), not to let anyone convince them it IS PRESENT (which would be most REASONABLE for them to be persuaded to be convinced of [tho false] BECAUSE of their present and ongoing tribulations and persecutions THEY WERE EXPERIENCING, per 1:4;

--verse 3 is Paul telling them that that awful "time-period-[FROM-VERSE-2!]-consisting-of-JUDGMENTS[-aspect... that comes at its ARRIVAL/"BE-PRESENT"-of-the-DOTL-earthly-time-period-of-JUDGMENTS]" will NOT be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* (<--this is our rapture event that he just spoke of [FROM v.1!])..."

When ppl blur these distinct items ^ together, they miss the actual point Paul is conveying.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 6, 2019

Can't remember if I posted this here recently, but this post of mine shows the "color-coded grammar chart" that a Greek grammar type scholar did (the color-coded chart thing only, below) whose name I no longer recall, and can no longer find:

[quoting my old post]

V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means the following phrase is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)-->] the man of sin be revealed..."

This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.

Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

1)

the departure first

and the man of sin

be revealed

2)

what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that

he

might be revealed IN HIS TIME

3)

only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]

and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked

be revealed

All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold upon the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [Lam2:3-4 which wording parallels that of 2Th2:7b-8a]); [not yet "IS PRESENT" tho!]

So the DEPICTION of this looks like the following:

[X='you are here'... "first vertical line is 'arrow UP' [='THE Departure *FIRST*']" ...<then DOTL will be in existence on the earth w/its 'man of sin' (SEAL #1) and 'judgments' unfolding>... "second vertical line is Jesus' "RETURN" to the earth ('arrow down') FOR the earthly MK age (note: the DOTL continues clear throughout the MK age also [including both "DARK/IN THE NIGHT" as well as the FULL LIGHT OF DAY])]

-----X---l_<DOTL>__________l______________<1000y>_______________>

V.3 - "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present, if not shall have come THE Departure *FIRST*, and the man of sin be revealed..."

(he is revealed at the START of the 7-yrs [2Th2:9a/8a], not at its MIDDLE [2Th2:4 (not shown in this depiction)], nor at its END [2Th2:8b (at Christ's "RETURN" to the earth FOR the commencement of the earthly MK age)])

[end quoting that post]

Wall · Dec 6, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Thats correct

PROVERBS 3 [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

The desolation of the wicked takes place on the return of Christ. Yup, the Day of the Lord. So can any of you Rapturist explain why we are told not to be afraid at that time IF we have been raptured off to heaven. Yeah. You cant explain that. Its because we will be here on Gods green earth during the desolation of the wicked

Ahwatukee · Dec 6, 2019

Wall said:

First of all, when you say "we are told not to be afraid at that time" what scripture are you referring to?

Take note of what you said above, that "the righteous will be on the earth during the desolation of the wicked." So, you're saying that God is going to punish the righteous with the wicked. Is that what you are saying? By the way, the word "desolation" is used in conjunction with Israel when they flee out into the wilderness. It is referring to when the abomination is set up which causes them to flee, i.e to make desolate.

The church cannot and will not be here on the earth during the time of God's wrath. It will be specifically to fulfill that last seven years of the seventy seven year period that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem and to punish the Christ rejecting inhabitants of the earth. The church has already believed in Christ and are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. You know this from reading the accounts of Noah and Lot.

The different between the church and Noah's and Lot's escape, is that Noah escaped in the ark, while Lot and his daughters escaped to a small town out of the valley. Because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the entire world, the Lord is going to keep His promise and come to get us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, as described in John 14:1-3.

I Thess.4:16-17, is the detailed account of the fulfillment of John 14:1-3

The saints mentioned during that time, will be those great tribulation saints who will have not believed in Christ prior to the gathering of the church and will therefore be caught in that time period.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 6, 2019

Wall said:

This is such a pathetic attempt to try and understand future events. You should really try to stay away from this subject. Either that or spend a great deal of time on Bible prophecy.

Actually no one is told NOT TO BE AFRAID during the Day of the LORD. The exact opposite is what will occur. And since the Day of the LORD is reserved for the wicked and the ungodly and unbelieving, why would it be of any concern to believers?

JOEL 2
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Wall · Dec 6, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

PROVERBS 3 [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN

The one i just posted. It wasnt a long post. How did you miss it.

Wall · Dec 6, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. [8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. [9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Why concerned?? Just read the scripture above and believe it. The evildoers will be cut off. When? The Day of the Lord ofcourse. We are to wait patiently for Him till that time. According to the Rapturist we have been with Him for 7 yrs in heaven. Not so uh...cording to scripture

PSALM 37 [34] WAIT ON THE LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, THOU SHALT SEE IT.

Where will we be waiting on the Lord? Trying to keep His ways? Yeah, right here on Gods green earth. And when He comes to destroy the wicked...were gonna see it happen

Wall · Dec 6, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Nope. I believe God can protect His people while destroying the wicked. You dont believe God is capable of doing so.

Joel 1:14-15 (KJV)
14 Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Sooo... Who do you claim are the people in verse 14.

Melach · Dec 6, 2019

presidente said:

you said it. i look at it like this too that anyone who received that letters in the first century would think okay this is the same coming. since the language in 1 thessalonians 4:16 and matthew 24:31 is so similar they clearly think it was same event. this is proof by early church documents like didache

just too complicated. its the coming, singular parousia bodily presence like dcon always says it has to jive with one coming

they didnt have bible to flip back and forth with like we did.

Wall · Dec 6, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Why concern for believers concerning the Day of the Lord? You aint gonna like this scripture

Acts 2:19-21 (KJV)
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I know darbys rapture has people saved 7 yrs prior to the Day of the Lord. Verse 7. Read it and weep

notuptome · Dec 6, 2019

presidente said:

The rapture occurs at the parousia, the coming of the Lord.
I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [parousian] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

II Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia]:

This is the same Greek word (infected for grammar of course.)

There will be members of the church alive at Jesus coming (see verse 15.) Pre-trib rapture has the rapture occurring seven years before the Lord's coming, unlike I Thessalonians 4:15.

The rapture occurs at Jesus' coming according to I Thess. 4:15-16. In II Thessalonians 2:8, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of his coming. Pre-trib has the church out of here before the man of sin is even revealed. But taking the passages together, the church is here on earth when he is destroyed.

Too many caps makes posts hard to read and follow.

My you are messed up. The church is not appointed to wrath. The great tribulation is focused on Israel not the church. The church is gone into the present of the Lord being caught up into the clouds. When Christ returns to the earth He returns to Jerusalem and rescues Israel not the church. Christ rules a kingdom of 1000 years on the earth from Jerusalem.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Melach · Dec 6, 2019

Wall said:

verse 7 in what chapter and book?

What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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