When the body dies, what happens to the spirit?

Hello again DB7, I stated what I believe, so I think it best that we agree to disagree at this point about the sleep of the soul (in part, at least, because I don't believe that anyone's salvation rests upon getting that particular doctrine right or not).

That said, the verses/passages that you posited for us have little to nothing to do with the Intermediate State and what happens during that time to the souls (not the bodies) of believers. And while I certainly disagree with your interpretation of the verses that I posited for us in my first post above (verses/passages that support a conscious, Intermediate State of the soul), here again, I will agree to disagree, principally because I don't believe that there is a compelling reason to continue the discussion.

Finally, if you are asking me who the better exegete is, you and/or the theologians from a couple of cults, or the theologians from the whole of the historic Christian Church (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, etc.), I've already told you where I stand in regard to that .. with the Church.

~Deut
p.s. - As you know, the church, as a whole, bickers and argues endlessly about a great many things, but when the ENTIRE Christian Church stops bickering and stands as ~one~ (w/o any variation of belief) concerning a particular doctrine, I would think it prudent, for any who disagree with us, to take the time to go back and consider, or consider again, why we continue to believe & teach what we do.
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The Bible is very clear. Those who are in Christ go IMMEDIATELY to be with Christ. Those who are not go to Hades.

But again, Deuteronomy, when Jesus died, and that event occurred when the OT saints walked around, Jesus remained in the grave for 3 days, and walked on earth for another 40 before he ascended into heaven, sat on his throne to the right-hand side of God, and made the way available for the saints to enter heaven. So that phenomenon that occurred, was only a testimony that Jesus was the Messiah, the OT saints went back to their graves afterwards (in my opinion), but either way, it doesn't say that they ascended anywhere but simply appeared to many on earth. In other words, they did not ascend into heaven as again, for 43 days Christ was not even in heaven yet.

...no one is judged before Judgement day, so that if we're with the Lord after we've died, as you say, it means that we already know our judgement, ...unless you think that Hitler's with Jesus now too in the meantime, while waiting to go to hell?

No one is judged before Judgement day!

That's fine D, i was being contentious with you for the sake of LPDM, i was pointing out the perceived errors and bad practices for his sake. But like you said, we've both stated our cases and said enough, let's see if either one of us has had any impact on him....? Thanks!

My wife's grandmother died recently, and there is now some debate between family members as to whether you go immediately to be with Christ of if you sleep until the resurrection.

After doing some Bible study, I want to say you go immediately to Christ, but I am honest enough to say I am biased in the matter, and could be reading my own desires into the scriptures.

I agree with what you have said.

However, that should be *spirit* in lower case, and a more appropriate translation (which is perfectly valid) would be *breath*. So what the writer was saying if that the breath of life returns to God, while the body turns to dust (not dust and ashes as mistakenly believed).

However that passage is not giving us insight into the immaterial portion of man -- the soul and spirit (which are always joined together, yet distinct from each other, and with distinct functions).

The New Testament is very clear (and the death of Stephen is a perfect example) that the saints go directly to be with Christ upon death. The unsaved go to Hades. AND SOUL SLEEP IS A FALSE DOCTRINE WHICH ORIGINATED WITH THE CULTS.

Prior to the resurrection of Christ, all the OT saints went to Abraham's Bosom in Hades (which is in the lower parts of the earth, or the heart of the earth, or the core of the earth). When Christ rose from the dead "He led captivity captive") and took all the OT saints from Hades to the New Jerusalem (wherein is Paradise). On the day of Pentecost it is my belief that these saints also received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and were thereby perfected. Therefore they are called *the spirits of just men made perfect* (Heb 12:22-24).

Or we could simply go with a (truly hard to forget) quote that one of my dear Christian brothers used to voice whenever discussions such as ours reached the point of stalemate (because our different interpretations of the Bible could not be harmonized) ... "die and learn"

~Deut

TOTALLY FALSE!

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment... (Heb 9:27) Those who are in Hades are simply awaiting their final judgment on Judgment Day for the Lake of Fire. But they have already been judged.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:18,36)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16)

some scripture and some personal experience. "flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit". "he who believes will never die". "God is love". Jesus appeared to the 500 at the same time. Jesus walked through walls when he reappeared on earth. The story of rich man who died and the angels carried him away. "I will be in the heart of the earth for 3 days"

How can we know if your comments line up with the truth of the scriptures, if you don't give scripture reference by book, chapter and verse?

Hello @Locoponydirtman, the entirety of the church/ALL of us (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, etc.) teach that God's saints are alive/awake during the "Intermediate State", IOW, while our bodies lie interred in death awaiting bodily resurrection at the end of the age, we go home to be with the Lord. We also teach that the doctrine of 'the sleep of the soul' is heresy.

Here are some of the Biblical reasons that explain why we all teach the same thing concerning this aspect of the Intermediate State.


~Deut
p.s. - Here are a few things to consider. If we/our souls become lifeless (like our bodies are) in death, then:

Hi again LPDM, you'll notice, like I said, of all the passages that Deuteronomy cited, not one was explicit or eschatological.
Matt 17, has nothing to do with the resurrection, it's about Jesus fulfilling the prophecies of both Moses & Elijah, as much as Samuel was raised from the dead temporarily to speak to Saul. Jesus was not talking about the end times here. Their appearance could have any significance about it, it was not proving that they were alive, this is easy for God. Don't forget, no one was allowed to enter heaven until Christ paid the price, and Christ had not paid the price yet, and was not seated at the right-hand of God!

I spoke about Luke in my first post, it's extremely ignorant to think that this is eschatological, ...it's not the subject matter, and heaven will not be as Jesus depicted in this allegory, it's not possible to have communication with the anguished.

Again, 2 Cor 5 and Phil. 1, are not speaking of the end times, they are expressions of speech, as much as Paul told the Corinthians that he is with them in spirit, and amongst them, even when he is absent.


But now LPDM, I will cite you verses that are pertinent and explicit to the topic at hand. There is no comparison to the ones that Deuteronomy cited, and it was extremely deficient and incompetent of him to overlook these very appropriate and didactic ones (sorry Deuteronomy, but it's true, very, very incompetent to disregard these blatant verses specifically on the subject matter)!
Plus LPDM, I only cited a few, there's many more about the end times and judgement day occurring at the final hour, and the usage of the term 'fallen asleep' always referring to death, never to animation and vivification.

And don't forget LPDM, our faith lies in the fact that Jesus was the first-born from the dead, as proof the God will do the same for us. If people are already being raised, the faith and hope has already been realised. This is the significance of the title first-born (and only born from the dead).

1 Thess. 4:13-17
4:13. Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 15. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 14. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 16. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Co. 15:1-6
15:1. Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5. and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

1 Co. 15:16-20
15:16. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. 20. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

1 Co. 15:22-23
15:22. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Co. 15:50-54
15:50. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52. in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

John 5:25-29
5:25. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28. "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29. and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 13:34-37
13:34. The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words: " 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.' 35. So it is stated elsewhere: " 'You will not let your Holy One see decay.' 36. "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37. But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

My wife's grandmother died recently, and there is now some debate between family members as to whether you go immediately to be with Christ of if you sleep until the resurrection.

After doing some Bible study, I want to say you go immediately to Christ, but I am honest enough to say I am biased in the matter, and could be reading my own desires into the scriptures.

No one is judged before Judgement day!

Hello LPDM, I believe that we sleep until the 2nd coming of Christ, known as Soul-Sleep. No one goes to a good or bad place during the interim between his 1st & 2nd coming, as no one is judged until Judgement Day and the books are opened.
1 Thess. 4:13-18 are the quintessential passages on this issue, it is as didactic and comprehensive, explicit and within context as it gets. Any one who believes in Soul-Awake, is always forced to defend their position with exclusively implicit passages. There are no didactic and explicit verses that are definitively in support of Soul-Awake. The parobole of Lazarus and the rich man is not eschatological, it's about the imminency of accepting Christ while the opportunity is there (no excuses), plus, the logistics that Jesus depicted of heaven are 200% implausible, clearly (there is no visibility or audibility between the two realms, etc..).
Of course, there are many more passages in support of Soul-Sleep, and if necessary, I will cite them also when asked.
Everything is in order with God, heaven is not being populated at a random pace as saints die in their turn.
You're grandmother-in-law is asleep as a spirit, waiting for Christ's return to be judged, as is my father.

Good day Locopondirtman,

What an account name that is

Don't be concerned, your bias is supported by scripture in that, for the believer at the time of death, the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. I want to start off by defining the difference between when we die and the resurrection. In II Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22 we read the following:

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Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. (2 Cor.5:6)

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Phil.1:22)
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There are some who attempt to claim that Paul is speaking about the resurrection in the scriptures above. However, the word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is derived from two words, ana=up and histemi=to stand, properly to stand up again in a physical body. That said, in the first scripture above, Paul says that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord and that he would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Likewise in the following scripture, Paul says, (and this is very important), "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. He also goes on to say that if he goes on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me and that he desires to depart from the body and be with Christ.

My point in all of this is that, when the resurrection takes place, it involves the spirit returning to the body, which becomes immortal and glorified and not departing from it. Paul is speaking about his spirit departing from his body at the time of death. This supported by what he said in Phil.1:22 "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Therefore, Paul is not speaking about the resurrection here, because the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body, not leaving it. In both scriptures Paul uses the words "away from the body" and "to depart (from the body)."

In short, in the first scripture Paul is saying that while our bodies are still alive, our spirits remain in the body and therefore our spirits are away from the Lord. However, Paul desires to die so that his spirit can depart from the body and go to be with the Lord. You can't do that if your spirit is sleeping in the dust of the earth.

The same meaning is contained in Phil.1:22, Paul gives us the answer as to what he is talking by saying "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Therefore, he is speaking about the death of his body so that his spirit can depart and go to be with Christ. In further support of this, Paul tells the Philippians that it is better for them that he remains in the body for the furtherance of their faith.

Now, regarding "soul-sleep" this is a false teaching. Referring back to the scriptures just presented, how can ones spirit/soul be sleeping in the dust of the earth, when Paul says, "I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far?" This would demonstrate that at the time of death a believer is not sleeping, but is in the presence of Christ, in the spirit. We also have many scriptures which show the spirit conscious and aware after death. The Rich man and Lazarus is one. Many attempt to make this a parable and thereby distort the literal meaning. In this event, we have Lazarus who dies and is buried and the rich man dying as well. Then we find both Lazarus and rich man conscious and aware after the death of their bodies down in Hades. The rich man can see father Abraham and Lazarus by his side and has a conversation with Abraham, even asking to have Lazarus rise from the dead to go to his father's house to warn his five brothers so that they come to that same place of torment.

Another example is at the opening of the 5th seal, John saw the souls under the altar of those who had been killed for the word of God and their testimony. They are seen crying out to the Lord in regards to when He was going to judge those on the earth and avenge their blood. Pretty active for guys whose souls are supposed to be sleeping in the dust of the earth.

Then we have Moses and the Elijah appearing with Jesus and talking with Him about His departure on the mount where the disciples saw Him in His glorified state.

We also have the thief saying to Jesus "Remember me when you come into your kingdom" and Jesus replies with "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise. Since both Jesus and the thief died, how could Jesus make him the promise that he would be with him in paradise that same day? It is because when both Jesus and the thief died, their spirits departed from their bodies and went down to Hades, the same place where Abraham and Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were, which was that place of comfort/paradise. There are many more examples of the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body. By the way, the reference to "sleep" is referring to the body only, not the spirit.

We also have the example of Stephen. While he was being stoned, he looked up and saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. And just before he died he said, "Lord, receive my spirit." The key to understanding this, is that Jesus wasn't sitting, but standing to receive Stephen's spirit.

The bottom line is that, if at the time of death our spirits are departing to be in the presence of Christ, then they can't be sleeping in the dust of the earth.

So, if your grandmother was in Christ, then her spirit departed and went to be in the presence of Christ, which is the same for all believers who die.

I hope that this relieves any concerns that you and your family may have regarding this issue.

Blessings in Christ!

That is not judgment. When the wicked die, like the rich man, their spirits go down into hades/sheol to begin their punishment. When the great white throne judgment takes place after the millennial kingdom, then those whose spirits that have been in Hades will resurrect and be officially be judged. See Rev.20:11-15

Soul-sleep is a false teaching. We have too many scriptural examples of the conscious awareness of the spirit to claim soul-sleep.

Regarding no one being judged, how about God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government?

Your error is that, the rich and Lazarus is not a parable, but a real event.

Jesus told the thief next to Him, "today, you will be with me in paradise." How could Jesus make that promise when both died that same day? It's hard to experience paradise when you're sleeping in the dust of the earth. Then there Moses and Elijah meeting and talking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration and many, many more examples. The reference to "sleep" is only referring to the body, not spirit.