What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

Who are the 144,000 tribulation witnesses in Revelation 7?

I believe in pre-trib rapture.... why? because that is how I want it to be! I really think I will be dead before Messiah return, the rapture or the tribulation... but if not I like the idea of per-trib so why not believe in pre-trib. If it is not just die for Messiah. The idea of being torchered for Messiah, sucks, or torcherd for anything, but I am lucky I am type one diabetic so if I do not get insulin I will go into a coma and die pretty quickly anyway.... I am a lucky duck if it is post-trib and if it is in my lifetime. I kind of feel bad for the people who cannot die of natural causes like me!!

What "fantasy" world are you living in when you said the following: "I believe in pre-trib rapture.... why? because that is how I want it to be!" That's like saying, "I'm going to whistle in the dark hoping the dark will go away." This is nothing more than "wishful thinking?"

And why are you throwing your arms up in the air giving up? I watched my mom die right in front of me in a nursing home from type one diabetes and she never gave up. She was an encouragement to others where she was at. I understand you are "musing" but it is God who is in control so try and be an encouragement to others even in pre-death or in death itself. In fact, one of the thief's on the cross with Jesus ended up being an encouragement to others even to this day.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I believing they are Israelites like the passage says. I do not allegoricalize that away. But a multitude from the nations come out of the great tribulation. I'm not sure when the 'fullness of the Gentiles' is complete-- maybe during this time period or at the end of it.

I love reading your posts brother. Notice also during the first trumpet it says all green grass was burned up, that will be a disaster when it comes to agriculture, going to be very tough surviving that alone.

Post-tribbers play down the severity of the trumpets and vials. I even heard one post-trib pre-wrath Pastor say about the seals the Lamb opens "Look, its natural disaster, its nothing supernatural".

When confronted with the Darby nonsense, I say the first post-tribbers in Church history were the ones who were telling the Thessalonians something that shook their minds and Paul had to send them a letter to correct them saying the day of the Lord is not yet, do not let your hearts be troubled. Why would their minds be troubled about the Second Coming? It would be a moment to rejoice, not something to be shaken up about.

I do not base my faith on the Church fathers, but even in there you can find some imminent return passages and a few plain statements that says Church is caught up from this prior to the tribulation. Anyone who is interested can google the quotes.

Dispensational pre-trib doctrine is like carefully organizing verses putting Bible truths in the right time period and looking at who is spoken to. That is why the so much quoted Matthew 24:29-31 is in no way proof against the pre-trib Rapture.
This event is the same as in Isaiah, where a trumpet is blown and the elect are gathered, no mention of a resurrection, no mention of dead in Christ rising first, they are gathered to Jerusalem not to the Father's house in heaven.

I still believe reading the Scriptures literally (unless context says otherwise) and comparing Scripture with Scripture will lead one to become a pre-trib believer. The people who take the Bible seriously are almost always pre-tribbers, whereas those who dont seem to care much are high-church amillennialists or postmillennialists who will not even open up the book of Revelation. Even Martin Luther struggled with understanding it, precisely because of his roman catholic background.

I notice an increase in interest to prophecy each time there is a revival happening and God is moving.

Why isn’t the Church called to be witnesses during this time? Oh, that’s right...they’re gone!

I believing they are Israelites like the passage says. I do not allegoricalize that away. But a multitude from the nations come out of the great tribulation. I'm not sure when the 'fullness of the Gentiles' is complete-- maybe during this time period or at the end of it.

The saints are the church. Jewish people can be a part of the church, too... oh yeah... like in the first century.

II Thessalonians 1 has the 'church' here when Jesus gets back to execute vengence on them that know not God and to be glorified in the saints.

The saints are the church. Jewish people can be a part of the church, too... oh yeah... like in the first century.

II Thessalonians 1 has the 'church' here when Jesus gets back to execute vengence on them that know not God and to be glorified in the saints.

That day, the time of Jacob’s trouble, is a day of wrath.

Zephaniah 1
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The Church is not appointed for this time of wrath, the time of Jacob’s trouble. The Church has obtained salvation through Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

If the church is on the earth during a time of God's wrath, that does not mean that God is angry at the church. This is a rather weak argument for pre-trib.

How is that justification for creating another 'second coming' of Christ? It is not like you can find a passage that lays out a sequence of events and show where the rapture occurs during that sequence of events, like in Revelation or Matthew 24-- not without making a ridiculous argument.

If the church is on the earth during a time of God's wrath, that does not mean that God is angry at the church. This is a rather weak argument for pre-trib.

How is that justification for creating another 'second coming' of Christ? It is not like you can find a passage that lays out a sequence of events and show where the rapture occurs during that sequence of events, like in Revelation or Matthew 24-- not without making a ridiculous argument.

If the Church is on earth, then why aren’t they called to be witnesses? Why raise up the two prophets and 144,000 male Jews?

Nobody is claiming two second comings. Christ does not come to earth during the rapture. The Church meets Him in the clouds in the air.

Again, the Church would not be on earth at the time of Jacob’s trouble because the majority of the Church has died and is present with the Lord. If at all, it would be just a small part of Christ’s body left behind. And would that make sense?

where in revelation you see the rapture? if you follow matthew 24 and revelation it looks like after the seals there is sun and moon darkened and then people in heaven who came from tribulation.

but also it cant happen before the 7th trumpet because last trumpet. revelation isnt written in order sadly

I believe the kingdom of heaven is the promised earthly kingdom where Christ rules in Jerusalem on the throne of David.

The only proof comes from denied context, denied verbiage, denied definitions of words, verses yanked out of context, a misapplication of the word of God, a denial of what the word saints actually means, the complete ignorance of Revelation being written to churches, denial of the word KEPT in Revelation, regurgitated error, false teachers, misapplication of the bible, ignorantly making wrath and tribulation the same thing etc......

I was raised in that farce, had it crammed down my throat with no factual evidence, believed it and peddled it just like most do today.... and at the end of the day the bible does not support a pre-tribulation ingathering.....it does support a pre-wrath ingathering....

Other scripture puts the rapture at the parousia.

You need to broaden your thinking. God let Christians go through being fed to lions. Jesus warned the disciples of persecution that would happen. Consider all the suffering and persecution in the early church. Does that mean Jesus does not love the church? Of course not.

The idea that if God loves us, that He won't have us suffer tribulation is clearly an unbiblical way of things. That's also one concern that every pre-tribber should have, "Am I only believing this because I want to believe that we will not suffer."

If pre-tribbers are wrong, the teaching is not preparing the saints to endure hardship like the Bible teaches.

I was talking about being prepared spiritually and also mentally and emotionally. Whether we go through 'the great tribulation' or not, we could all potentially go through tribulation. There are Christians in North Korea in prison right now for the faith.

I wonder if there will be people taking the mark of the beast who will justify it to themselves by saying, "This can't be the mark of the beast because the preacher said I would be raptured before that happened if I repeated a prayer after him, and I cannot lose my salvation if I repeated those words."