3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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fredoheaven said:
Context is telling us such description of faith:
v1 relates to the word 'patience"
v2 connects is to the word "endured"
v3 again the word related to is "endured"
v4 we have such word of "striving"
v7 such word as "endure" rightfully speaks of this kind of faith

The writer of the Hebrews is not speaking of the one 'saving faith' rather this is the daily faith of the Christians, the saved.:)
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I’m not denying that. But faith does not originate from us. And Hebrews 12:2 tells us Who Authors this very faith we need in order to be saved.
 
J

John146

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Yes my friend. We believed in Christ. Why did we do this? Because we HAD faith. We had faith and then believed. What you’re averring is ppl believe and THEN come to faith. That’s not even remotely possible. You can’t believe w/o faith and vice versa.
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Why do you deny the clear, scriptural order of things?

We have believed in Jesus Christ? Why? That we might be justified by His faith, not our own. Our faith could never justify. Our individual faith waivers. Christ’s faith never waivers.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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John146 said:
Why do you deny the clear, scriptural order of things?

We have believed in Jesus Christ? Why? That we might be justified by His faith, not our own. Our faith could never justify. Our individual faith waivers. Christ’s faith never waivers.
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I’m not denying ANYTHING my friend. The clear scriptural order of things is hearing the gospel, then faith then justification. But faith and justification happen simultaneously. When one comes to faith in the Christ, they are justified. Not before, not after. They happen together. We may say faith then justification, but in reality, they happen simultaneously. :)
 
cv5

cv5

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fredoheaven said:
And nothing to do with salvation my friend.
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Choice or election is the only reason that anyone is saved to begin with.
You are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.
 
J

John146

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
I’m not denying ANYTHING my friend. The clear scriptural order of things is hearing the gospel, then faith then justification. But faith and justification happen simultaneously. When one comes to faith in the Christ, they are justified. Not before, not after. They happen together. We may say faith then justification, but in reality, they happen simultaneously. :)
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I agree with this. But remember, justification comes by the faith of Christ. We place our faith in the gospel and immediately Christ’s faith is imputed to us. The faith of Jesus Christ is God’s righteousness.
 
cv5

cv5

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fredoheaven said:
Context is telling us such description of faith:
v1 relates to the word 'patience"
v2 connects is to the word "endured"
v3 again the word related to is "endured"
v4 we have such word of "striving"
v7 such word as "endure" rightfully speaks of this kind of faith

The writer of the Hebrews is not speaking of the one 'saving faith' rather this is the daily faith of the Christians, the saved.:)
Click to expand...
Who are of themselves empowered and awakened and reborn according to their own will and initiative?

Not a chance.

Many are called but few are CHOSEN.
 
Whispered

Whispered

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John146 said:
When are you known of God? Before the foundation of the world? Not according to Paul and God’s word.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Now that ye are known of God, stop trying to work your way to Him.

No one was in Christ before the foundation of the world. The Lord was present before the foundation of the world but no Calvinist was there. One is placed in Christ at the new birth.

Somehow, a Calvinist was in Christ, fell out of Christ and into Adam, and fell out of Adam and back into Christ at salvation.
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The Book of Jeremiah chapter 1 verse 5.
 
cv5

cv5

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John146 said:
When are you known of God? Before the foundation of the world? Not according to Paul and God’s word.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Now that ye are known of God, stop trying to work your way to Him.

No one was in Christ before the foundation of the world. The Lord was present before the foundation of the world but no Calvinist was there. One is placed in Christ at the new birth.

Somehow, a Calvinist was in Christ, fell out of Christ and into Adam, and fell out of Adam and back into Christ at salvation.
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Absolutely incorrect. All the redeemed are elect and chosen and foreordained and written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.
Im off to service I will post scriptures later.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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cv5 said:
Still waiting for your exegesis. Nothing but crickets so far. And insults.

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons"

What is your problem with the clear understanding of this passage? A grade school child can understand it.
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listen

we have all, myself included of course, refuted your teaching up one side and down the other using scripture for the most part

I do believe we are way past that since you believe you have the better understanding according to Calvin, so no point there. if you miss those posts, you are free to go back and read them again :)

your posts are an insult to Christians everywhere

calling human beings that you have decided are not predestined for anything but hell, trash

those are your words. trash.

yet, the Bible clearly states that the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels

you know, one thing you did get right. I was actually in kindergarten when I accepted Jesus and I have been growing in Him ever since

your words are judgmental and condemnatory

do you know what Christ said of those who call their fellow believers fools?

you are anything but blameless in your choice of judgement upon others

with the judgement you hand out, so it will be meted out to you...also the words of Christ

God looks on the heart and you have no access to anyone's heart...your own included it would seem

you do not understand righteous judgement and yet that is what is required of us...better yet...leave that to the God who created all things. He is the judge. the final One
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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Flint321 said:
I doubt hes even read John Calvin, alot of Calvinists haven't and i for one havnt, neither do i really care about John Calvin, just proper biblical theology, which Arminian theology doesn't follow in full truth, theres just no way around it, you can't destroy election, your playing God and its wicked, you want to worship a false God. You want an IDOL, that you like, isn't that the true case?

OR go read Romans 9 right now and see that you can't make this stuff up, its just your wicked soul in rebellion against God.
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well proper biblical 'theology' would require that your own soul be required then since my life is in God's hands and not even the devil himself can remove me from that grip

I see your tongue is a rusty sword

no surprise since it seems just about all who believe as do you are better off silent or at least less judging since it is going to boomerang

I forgive you for you choice of words. you just don't know better

you do know that honey works better than poison, right?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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as for Romans 9...

Romans 9 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
V. Jews and Gentiles in God’s Plan
Chapter 9
Paul’s Love for Israel. 1 I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie; my conscience joins with the holy Spirit in bearing me witness 2 that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.

since the Calvinists oppose God's plan, they do not see that Paul is actually addressing his own people here. they mistakenly conclude that they are Israel and promptly put themselves in the category of blindness

it is actually an interesting theory I think. Paul laments the fact that his people are blinded to the truth

so, those who oppose dispensation, argue that Christians here and now are the actual Israelites

and what happened to them? they were for the most part, BLINDED to the truth

just a thought I had and the Bible does not say this explicitly, but I certainly do see a parallel
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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more Roman's 9...

God’s Free Choice. 6 But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel, 7 nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants. 9 For this is the wording of the promise, “About this time I shall return and Sarah will have a son.” 10 And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac— 11 before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God’s elective plan might continue, 12 not by works but by his call—she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written:

“I loved Jacob
but hated Esau.”
14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not! 15 For he says to Moses:

“I will show mercy to whom I will,
I will take pity on whom I will.”
16 So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.” 18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.

now we have to ask, just why does God harden hearts? hang on. here is the biblical response to that very question

the root meaning of the word being used to describe the process through which people condemn themselves under the gaze of God actually means 'to harden ..or strengthen'

so the concept is actually that God is just giving them more of what they already are

six times Scripture says “the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Ex 9:12; 10:1; 10; 27; 11:10; 14:8). But it also notes that Pharaoh hardened his own heart seven times before the Lord took his action (Ex 7:13-14, 22; 8:15, 19; 32; 9:7).

there are other examples of the same in scripture, but I'm not teaching here, only providing an example which can be further found, if a person desires, in the Bible

we have also this further warning from God, as, in His mercy, He desires ALL to repent and turn to Him. so generally, this can be considered a call to change your mind and allow the word to perform in your heart and agree with what that very word states

so here is the warning:

5Now Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,b testifying to what would be spoken later. 6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmlyc to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

Do Not Harden Your Hearts
(Psalm 95:1-11)

7Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear His voice,

8do not harden your hearts,

as you did in the rebellion,

in the day of testing in the wilderness,

9where your fathers tested and tried Me,

and for forty years saw My works.

10Therefore I was angry with that generation,

and I said,

‘Their hearts are always going astray,

and they have not known My ways.’

11So I swore on oath in My anger,

‘They shall never enter My rest.’

do not harden your hearts. that is what you need to take away from anything else you read on here today. YOU are the guard who stands duty over your own heart

allow God to soften it. turn from the sin of unbelief and making it impossible for God to bless you

Paul speaks of Abraham in the quote from scripture above and how was Abraham made righteous? his faith was accounted to him (by God) for righteousness

he believed God
 
cv5

cv5

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7seasrekeyed said:
listen

we have all, myself included of course, refuted your teaching up one side and down the other using scripture for the most part

I do believe we are way past that since you believe you have the better understanding according to Calvin, so no point there. if you miss those posts, you are free to go back and read them again :)

your posts are an insult to Christians everywhere

calling human beings that you have decided are not predestined for anything but hell, trash

those are your words. trash.

yet, the Bible clearly states that the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels

you know, one thing you did get right. I was actually in kindergarten when I accepted Jesus and I have been growing in Him ever since

your words are judgmental and condemnatory

do you know what Christ said of those who call their fellow believers fools?

you are anything but blameless in your choice of judgement upon others

with the judgement you hand out, so it will be meted out to you...also the words of Christ

God looks on the heart and you have no access to anyone's heart...your own included it would seem

you do not understand righteous judgement and yet that is what is required of us...better yet...leave that to the God who created all things. He is the judge. the final One
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Sorry. Not Scriptural. Still waiting. Will provide my own scripture later. Yes premeditated sovereign Election is devastating to your pride, but true nevertheless.

Election does glorify God though. Thats the idea after all right? Thanks eternal for His gracious Choice for those powerless and unworthy?
 
cv5

cv5

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Question to the board:
Was there the slightest chance that Judas would truly repent and be saved?
Or was he condemned from before he was born, from before the foundation of the world?

The implications are quite staggering as it begs the question: was there any possibility whatsoever, however slim, that Christ being sacrificed as the Lamb could be averted, thwarted or even so much as delayed one microsecond?

In John:17:12
"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."
 
Whispered

Whispered

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cv5 said:
Question to the board:
Was there the slightest chance that Judas would truly repent and be saved?
Or was he condemned from before he was born, from before the foundation of the world?

The implications are quite staggering as it begs the question: was there any possibility whatsoever, however slim, that Christ being sacrificed as the Lamb could be averted, thwarted or even so much as delayed one microsecond?

In John:17:12
"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."
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You believe that one is Judas Iscariot?
 
cv5

cv5

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Whispered said:
You believe that one is Judas Iscariot?
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If you can prove that this scripture is referring to someone other than Judas of Kerioth, have at it.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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cv5 said:
Who are of themselves empowered and awakened and reborn according to their own will and initiative?

Not a chance.

Many are called but few are CHOSEN.
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Um.. not a slightest chance Heb. 12.2 is talking about being "reborn" my friend. That's assumption!:)
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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cv5 said:
Choice or election is the only reason that anyone is saved to begin with.
You are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.
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Revelation 22:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
 
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