What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

What would be your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib rapture?

My Church teaches it, all the good teachers I know teach it and everyone and their momma believes in it, but its largely foreign in Church history (or things are snipped outta context by pre-tribbers to try to prove it, which I will forgive cause aint nobody got time to read all the church fathers' and many of them are in error too).

I cant see it as being something like: "Yo heres a verse..." it seems to be more like the kind of doctrine that requires some seeds planted and questions asked and saying thats to a different group and making charts showing "differences" between rapture verses and second coming verses. They can be differences OR its just the same event and its trouble to unbelievers and rest to believers like in 2 thessalonians 1:7-9. It depends on how you look at it. BEFORE anyone says it, YES I know the TRINITY is kind of like that too! Which is SAD to me, wish we had a clear ONE VERSE for the trinity, but WHO AM I to complain?

Some proofs I have heard, which all are good imo:

-Jesus wont put His body through wrath AGAIN
-People are RETURNING from heaven with Jesus in Rev 19, so they need to be up there before that return
-The bridegroom parable from Matthew 25
-John 14:1-3 literally cant be fulfilled in historical premillennialism, only in amill,postmill and dispensational premillennialism (correct me if im wrong)


I guess the point of this thread is: IF someone asked you: "Hey, show me the pre-trib rapture in the Bible?" WHERE would you take them? What would be your GO-TO verse(s)?

May I ask you a couple of questions? Is this what you personally believe? If not, do you want more scriptual proof of the pre-trib rapture than the ones that you mentioned? Or do you have doubts and want to entertain another position?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

There is no proof...it went 'poof'. In all honesty, it never went 'poof' as there is no evidence to go 'poof'. When I've asked for ppl to show me where a pre-trib rapture is in 1 Thess. 4:13-18, 1 Cor. 15:50ff, Rev. 4:1, they go to other places to prove it. Uhhh, that's not what I asked. I asked them to show me a pre-trib rapture from those places. Not go to the OT, or other places in the NT. They can not stay in those passages and prove it, so they go to other places to prove it.

Sure you can bro! What I personally believe is that I am being thrown by every wind of doctrine when it comes to eschatology. Im DEEP ROOTED when it comes to other things, but eschatology is like the odd man out for me. Everytime I think I gots this figured out I find something else and BAM there goes that.

I have heard many debates, read all the articles the books the this and that. And one thing that I see is that ALL eschatological positions got some MAJOR problems with them, by MAJOR i mean they have to CHANGE what verses mean, or water down the verses to not mean what they plainly say.

I can demonstrate this quickly for ALL common views:

Dispensational premillennialism - You have to imagine that 1 Thess 4:15 is a DIFFERENT COMING than the second coming that everyone was waiting for, EVEN THOUGH its clear when compared to with rest of Scripture that there is only one time Jesus is coming again (Acts 1:11, Acts 3:21) Its also clear that even in the midst of the vials in Revelation 16:15 Jesus is still saying "I am COMING" so He still has not COME! Paul says Christians get rest at the same time as Jesus returns in flaming fire, so clearly not a rapture separate coming: 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9. To their credit: This view is the best of both worlds in the sense that it accounts for the verses that seem to say Jesus could come at any moment, while also taking seriously the many signs preceding the Lord's return concluding yeah these cant be the same event, they are usually taking scripture very seriously and literally (except for interpreting revelation 4:1 ) and a big bonus: the MOST righteous living, Spirit filled, on fire for God Christians I know are in this camp. My church also teaches this. All my favorite preachers teach this.

Historical premillennialism - You have the problem who populates the millennium? 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 proves to be a stumbling stone here too, because all the saved are given rest, glorified bodies, resurrected, and the lost are destroyed, leaving no one left in the flesh the populate the millennium. How do they get around it? They go to Zechariah 14, say some people are left, or try to otherwise twist 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 to say only SOME lost are destroyed, those who WILLINGLY dont know Him and so on. The other problem is, the Rapture seems largely meaningless because Jesus is coming to this very same earth, so why do a U-turn to begin with. To their credit: I believe this view is the one you end up with when just reading the entire book of Revelation and/or bible from cover to cover, which is why it was the most popular view in the early early early church!

Amillennialism - You have to completely twist and turn Revelation 20 and jump all over the Bible to make the claim that satan is bound already. First resurrection is spiritual, yet rest of the dead also live after the millennium, and thats a physical resurrection. Well that means all the saved are part of it too! Making the first spiritual resurrection, being born again spiritually kind of POINTLESS. They also have to ignore Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 are clearly in chronological order, beast and false prophet taken out first, satan then bound, released and then thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet ARE (already ARE, cause they was thrown in there in Revelation 19)! To their credit: This view fits the New Testament the best OUTSIDE OF the book of Revelation.


Basically as you can see, MAYBE im just nitpicking, but IMO: ALL the views have holes in em. Which is why we got many VIEWS to begin with! SORRY if I went too long hopefuly SOMEONE has enough patience to read thru my drivel!

Nice to see you back on here broski! How are you doing bro? God bless you. The Reformed CREW is back in it

Doing good. So, do you have a eschatological camp you lean towards?

^Read my post above, that should answer.

AT THE MOMENT, I will just roll with the party line so to speak. Meaning, my Church is dispensational pre-tribbers and as I say, so are all my favorite teachers and preachers and the most godly Spirit filled Christians I know in real life.

But my policy is: I will never teach anyone eschatology, because i dont wanna go around teaching one way or another, because next week I will believe something different.

Dont get me wrong I will tell people to be ready for Jesus returning and all that, but i wont get specific until I know for sure whats what and im locked in on it! This is teh last thing in my doctrine to lock down and it has taken FOREVER to do so.
My ministry is moreso focused on RECOVERING inmates and OGs and junkies and giving them the Gospel, and a program to follow in life to prevent relapses. Not so much into teaching the church on eschatology, atleast for now. So im on the ABC level since most of these guys are coming from ROUGH backgrounds. I believe this is what im called to because I can relate and they can relate to me so its not like some outsider coming in and saying to some OG in a cell thats been down for a decade that "YO you need to reform and be a Christian now broski" they would ask "Who are you ?!?!?!"

I believe they all have holes in them. Amill has to allegorize a metric ton of verses to make it work, imo. Postmill has the world getting better as the gospel is spread worldwide. I don’t see that in the Bible, but times getting worse and worse. Dispy pre-mill has no clear passage that teaches a pre-trib rapture. Historic Premill has its holes too, as Isaiah 65 can be taken allegorically, but I see it as being literal. But I can see where ppl get it being symbolic.

How have you been?

Yeah you are like me then. PLEASE will someone set me straight and LAY IT ALL DOWN, GOD PLEASE, I will do a prayer marathon to get this thing sorted out one of these days!

Im doing great broski. I have been struggling with depression all my life and I feel liek FINALLY recently by God's grace ive gotten rid of it and not every day is just pure MISERY but im actually HAPPY.

I got a new book coming called buy your best life now... nah just joking hahaha

Personally, I believe Historic Premill leaves a lot less questions unanswered than the other three. But again, that’s MY opinion. Others have differing ones.

Do you got an answer to the holes I mentioned in it at post #4 ?

I do not believe in a pre-trib resurrection of the saints which the first three and one half years is not tribulation, but the last three and one half years.

And who do people think the tribulation is for but it is for the saints.

As long as repentance and salvation are offered to the world the resurrection will not happen.

And there is only 2 resurrections, one for the saints before the millennial reign of Christ, and one after the millennial reign of Christ.

Also when the resurrection happens no Gentile can be saved after that for Jesus said if they were hypocritical they cannot be caught up to be with Him, and will have their portion with the hypocrites, and once He has shut the door and you knock it is too late.

And none of the world can be caught up to be with Jesus for if they did not make it in the first resurrection then that means that they rejected the truth so they missed out, which the Gospel shall be preached in to all the world as a witness unto all nations and then comes the end, which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father when He shall have put down all authority, power, and rule.

Once the resurrection happens no Gentile can be saved after that but will go to the second resurrection.

And once the resurrection happens Jesus is right on the world to put them down, but if it is pre 7 years period why do they continue for 7 more years, and especially if nobody can be saved after that so it would make no sense for them to continue on for 7 years.

Also if it is pre 7 years period then there would be no tribulation saints for no Gentile can be saved after that, and the Gentiles have salvation until the fulness of them come in which is when they take the mark of the beast which is at the mid point of the 7 years period.

Which is why Paul said let no person deceive you by any means for the gathering of the saints shall not happen until there is a falling away first which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which for the first three and one half years they hindered the Gospel and religion was about the new age movement and their interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, and anything taught contrary was not tolerated and a hate crime for they say it is not truth, and they want peace.

And the man of sin claims to be God which will happen at the mid point of the 7 years period, which at the end of the first three and one half years is when the falling away shall happen, which the transgressors shall come to the full, then a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences shall stand up, and his power shall be mighty but not by his own power, and by peace shall destroy many, and shall destroy the mighty and holy people physically.

So Paul said the resurrection shall not happen until after the man of sin claims to be God which happens at the mid point of the 7 years period.

But then the beast makes war against the saints and prevails against them, and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things shall be finished.

But Israel is protected for the 7 years period from physical attack for God has the plan to restore the kingdom unto them, and turn the Jews to the truth that Jesus is their Savior by 2 witnesses at the last three and one half years which the beast cannot harm them and they take down anyone that tries to hinder them preaching.

So if the beast makes war against the saints for the last three and one half years then it has to include Gentile saints, which is why it is the greatest persecution ever in the history of the truth for it is on a world wide scale.

And all the Jews are back on their land by way of the peace treaty in the Middle East which God said that He would leave none of the Jews in the nations anymore, and at the beginning of the last three and one half years the 2 witnesses only started preaching to the Jews to turn them to the truth.

So when the persecution starts it will be on a world wide scale and Gentile saints are persecuted, but if it is pre 7 years resurrection there would not be any Gentile saints.

Also some people think the wrath of God is in the 7 years period but it is not.

For the first three and one half years repentance and salvation is available to the world so the wrath of God would not be there.

And when the beast claims to be God he has power to continue for the last three and one half years, and has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, and can only have that power if God allows him, and God gives the kingdom to whoever He wants which this time He is allowing the world to rebel against Him, so the wrath of God would not be there if God is allowing the beast to rule.

So the wrath of God is not in the 7 years period, and the 6 trumpets is not the wrath of God but warnings to the world to turn to God as He gives them a chance to do right for that is how He operates like He gave Sodom and Gomorrah a chance to see if there was any that were righteous.

An example is WW1, did not turn to God, set up League of Nations, WW2, did not turn to God, set up United Nations, and that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet the religion of Islam against the world which one third of the world perishes which is mostly in the Arab nations as they pluck them up by the roots, which describes nuclear weapons, and is so terrible of a war that the 10 horn kingdom failed at obtaining peace but they do not turn to God but turn to the New Age Christ as the solution to have peace on earth.

Which after the 6th trumpet God said they still will not repent of their evil deeds, and turn to Him, but keep trying to achieve peace on earth by their own power, which they believe in evolution, and they are still evolving, and do not acknowledge a personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power the evolutionary process, so God gives them the man of sin, New Age Christ to rule over them.

Also if people use the reasoning that God would not allow the saints to go through the tribulation then He would of not allowed any saint to be persecuted by the world for the history of the Church, but we know that they are persecuted, and all that will live godly shall be persecuted.

But the tribulation is not for the world but for the saints and it is only for the last three and one half years.

Also Paul said that when they shall say Peace and safety which is when the nations governments come together and try to establish peace on earth the saints shall not be deceived by that but know it is not of God.

Which Jesus said that He will deliver all the saints from the temptation that shall come upon the whole world to try all them that dwell on earth, which there can only be one temptation that can tempt all people of the world at the same time which is when the world says Peace and safety for will they get with God, stay with God, or follow the world.

Which God said multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision, for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision for it is a deciding point for the world for which direction they will go.

Which when the nations come together and say Peace and safety it will start the 7 years period which Paul said the saints will not be deceived by that, and Jesus will deliver the saints from that temptation.

So the saints are on earth and the resurrection has not happened when the 7 years period starts.

Continued,

Continued,

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

The new age movement and their false interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution.

The new age movement will pave the way to the beast kingdom, and is the beginning of the end for the wicked.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

During the first three and one half years the new age movement is the only religion tolerated, and the time that the world will not want to hear the Bible according to how it has been preached for many years but want to hear it according to the new age movement.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

When the resurrection does not happen pre 7 years period it will overthrow the faith of some and they will follow the new age movement.

That is something to think about greatly to understand for you do not want to be preaching a pre 7 years resurrection and it does not happen for it will overthrow the faith of some because it did not happen and they will think that the new age movement is the right interpretation, and that is because the pre 7 years resurrection is so popular.

But if pre 7 years resurrection is not true it will do damage to some people that are overthrown in their faith, but if mid point or any time after that to the end of the 7 years period is not true it does no damage to people.

So if a person has doubts of the pre 7 years period if it is true it is better not to say anything, not to preach anything about it.

But it is not true, and with all that I said I do not see how I can believe in a pre 7 years period resurrection.

Well, I don’t think 1 Thess. 4:13-18 teaches this as a separate event from His second advent. Some says it’s a “secret rapture”. I’m sorry, but the shout from the archangel and the trumpet of God hardly constitutes secret. This event will be physical and visable. Plus, in pre-trib, they ALWAYS look forward to the rapture. Nowhere are we told to do that. Our blessed hope is His second advent, not a pre-trib rapture.

No way can Satan be bound now as it says he will in Rev. 20. It says he will not deceive the nations until these 1,000 years are completed. I see deception on every hand right now.

I see ppl populating the earth during the MK. It says those who die at 100 will be like they were cursed. It seems to me ppl will live and die during this time.

But as I said, all four camps have holes in them the others can pick at.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum is a very respected teacher; I think you would like his books, but he is difficult to listen to as he only has hearing in one ear and many people love his books but cannot listen easily to his teaching.
Meno Kalisher is good and he understands Hebrew which is always advantageous👌

Do you know which view he holds to?

My faith will not be over-thrown because Jesus has prayed for me that my faith fail not. So no matter when the rapture occurs, I know I am His and nothing is more important than Him.

AMEN! Thats how I look at it too. You could say its the pan-rapture view. HOWEVER IT PANS OUT! We'll be ready and we'll be good to go.

Premillennial

Well, as we are currently in the tribulations... don't see how the rapture Paul wrote of could come before..😁