WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

Our gathering to HIM IS THE DAY OF THE LORD, THE SECOND ADVENT, WHEN HE RETURNS AS LORD OF LORDS...
YOU TELL ME WHEN YOU THINK I GO ASTRAY OF GODS TRUTH HERE

1 Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
1 Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
THE SUBJECT- THOSE WHO ARE ASLEEP-THOSE WHO HAVE DIED

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
THE SUBJECT-OUR BELIEF THAT CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD, AS HAVE THOSE WE KNOW HAVE DIED AND HAVE RISEN, AND GOD WILL THEM WITH HIM

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
THE SUBJECT-THOSE WHO ARE LIVING, DON'T STOP THE SOULS WHO DIE, FROM GOING TO HEAVEN
IN OTHER WORDS, THOSE WHO DIE GO TO HEAVEN. THEY ARE NOT IN A HOLE IN THE GROUND ROTTING AWAY WITH THEIR FLESH BODIES, WAITING TO BE RESURRECTED ON THE LORDS DAY

(2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.)
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first
SUBJECT-THE LORD DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN, AND ALL THOSE WHO HAVE JUST EXPERIENCED A FLESH DEATH RESURRECT,

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
SUBJECT-FIRST RESURRECTION, WONT BE HURT BY THE SECOND DEATH
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
SUBJECT-THE LORD COMES NOT IN THE "DAY" BUT THE "NIGHT"

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
SUBJECT-THEY SHALL BE SAYING "PEACE AND SAFETY", BUT SUDDEN DESTRUCTION IS COMING UPON THEM, THEY DON'T ESCAPE
AND THAT DESTRUCTION IS COMING IN WAVES

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
SUBJECT-DON'T BE IN DARKNESS SO THAT WHEN THE LORDS DAY COMES IT DOESN'T FIND YOU AS ONE OF THE DECEIVED

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
SUBJECT-BECAUSE WE ARE GODS CHILDREN, NOT SATANS

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do other but let us watch and be sober.
SUBJECT-DON'T LET YOUR SOUL BE TAKEN AS OTHERS DO BUT WATCH

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
SUBJECT-FOR THOSE WHO DIE (LOSE THEIR SOULS) , DIE IN THE TIME TO SATAN, AND THEY ARE THE ONES EATING AND DRINKING WITH THE FALLEN ANGELS JUST LIKE IN THE DAYS OF NOAH

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
SUBJECT-PUT ON THE GOSPEL ARMOR

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
SUBJECT-WE HAVE OBTAINED SALVATION BY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, GODS WRATH WONT TOUCH US.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
SUBJECT-WHETHER WE ARE ALIVE IN THE FLESH, OR HAVE DIED IN THE FLESH, WE LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM, DEATH OF THE FLESH DOES NOT SEPARATE US FROM HIM FOR ANY PERIOD OF TIME.

YEAH, IT LOOKS LIKE EACH SAINT OR SINNER WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR HIMSELF, WHETHER HE WILL TAKE THE MARK OR NOT. THAT MUST BE WHAT IS MEANT BY "HE THAT OVERCOMETH" AT THE END OF ALL 7 CHURCH WARNINGS.

ALSO LOOKS LIKE GOD HAS PUT THE TWO WITNESSES IN CHARGE

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Yeah, it must be right? To fit your grand scheme? You must believe that believers can lose their salvation?

Who’s that returning with Him dressed in fine linen, clean and white? It’s not angels.

That's a dispensationalist innovation. Creating time periods that are not there. Not following the signified language spoken of in the introduction hermeneutics to the book.

Hear no more "what" about the church?

Is not the revelation to the church in the whole book . Where did the church go?

Revelation 1 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

Is the church there in chapter 5 -22 or hidden in the parables?

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man and he saw and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

How many thousands of years ago was that???? Once again, God has no NEED OF MORE SOULS IN HEAVEN. HE HAS ALL THAT HAVE EVER LIVED UP TO THIS LAST GENERATION.


Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had (AS IN PAST TENSE) the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal


Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

And if you think that you wont be tested, you are just kidding yourself. Did you read the description of the seven churches? That is who you think is going to be rapture PRE SATAN??? To be the bride of Christ????

You know I do. I told you, we can't save ourselves. Only Jesus can. The gift is offered, but if you believe that you don't have to be holy and righteous on your own, you are sadly mistaken. The indwelling of the Spirit will lead and guide even convict you of your sins, but force you to be good, never. That is called free will. Death and Judgment to every man, no matter what he may believe is Gods Truth. Except for those who overcome.
I take it you don't feel knowing the OT is just as important as knowing the New. Because if you did, you would know so much more about who God is, than you do. Sure the gentiles received salvation through faith alone. How they decided that was all that was required, I have no idea. But they just "stay saved". We were created for HIS Pleasure, not ours. Could you imagine looking at your own kid, 30 or 40 years later and him looking back at you saying, Nah, I don't need to work and make money, you already did. I could never do as good a job as you did, so I am just not even going to try. You have already given me everything I need so I think I will just keep living like I am. Doesn't sound like a very good kid or servant, does it.

Then there’s no hope for any of us for none of us is holy and righteous on our own. None.

To be holy is to s be set apart for the purposes of God a work he does . The dirt on Mount Sanai was set apart as holy for a one time demonstration .The dirt had no righteousness of its own.

How could a person be righteous on his own and be called that a imputed righteousness .This is seeing no man will be found with his own righteousness. Sounds like you are prompting self righteousness?

As you did say. You agree that he indwelling of the Spirit will lead and guide even convict you of your sins he must do the first work . Does he force that belief on you? Or is that what a imputed righteousness does cause one to believe? It would seem the indwelling of the Spirit works in us to both will or reveal his will and secondly give you his desire to perform it.

Why Murmur? We work out that which he freely give .Not work for to gain. That would be double jeopardy .He has already finished all the work necessary to please the just demands of the letter of the law, that kills

So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out, for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure. All things do without murmurings and reasonings,Philipians 2:12-14

Can't make our own hard hearts soft someone must do the work.

Deighann quote;
""Where do you come up with this? Do you have ANY Scripture to back up what you say?""

UH,Jesus speaking is scripture.
Pssst ..."before" is different (not the same as) than "AFTER".
You know,you could address "before"
You could be honest and center in on (address) the actual substance of what is said.

But no,you turn off obvious no brainers and go "Deflect mode"

That is rude,tedious and dishonest.

I have no idea of your position.
At one time i thought you were postrib rapture adherent.
Then came your untimely declaration that "there is no rapture tada tadoo tadee"

So my answer is risque.
Postrib rapture adherents base their ENTIRE THEORY on
1) "i refuse to test fit or acknowledge a pretrib rapture even if Jesus said so"
2) A trumpet
3) misapplying "day of the Lord"

4) all your mismashed,misplaced,misapplication of verses.

You (whatever position you adhere to) is not in anyway proving any doctrine.

Your cunning applications fail due to omission of what many here have PLAINLY presented.

You have no case

....as does any postrib.
You guys took yourselves out
I would be embarrased to try and change the nt over some dusty doctrine.
Yet you do just that

lol
You referenced Jewish remnant. On the planet,just assuming it is the church.

Keep reading.
Just a little while later they are gathered in rev 14 as "ripe fruit"

You still dont realize the rapture is the gathering of the church for Jesus's prophetic plan he laid out at the last supper.
"IN HEAVEN" ,"MANY MANSIONS","THAT WHERE I AM YOU MAY BE ALSO"

Then conversely you have no clue as to the purpose of the gt.

IT IS CALLED "JACOBS TROUBLE"
Your theory is tired and false.

You guys think "day,trumpet,and tribulation" are magic words that are flash cards removing Jesus plain declarations

The difference is i study the post trib doctrine. I study all positions eccept the ludicrous historicist view.

So i have your deal to COMPARE to my deal.

That is the difference.

There is no need fot me to deflect.
I can go toe to toe with postribs (or whatever your position is)

Because i have shown you newly introduced verses. That is the difference.
You have those antequated talking points.
But you INTERPRETATION FAILS.
WHY?

Because all false imterpretations carry alongside an "impossibility"

I have demonstrated that.
Once that is demonstrated the false is to be jettisoned.

Postrib RAPTURE doctrine is EASILY challenged and relegated to the trash pile.
It is ,infact ...impossible.

But maybe you can get a new starting place

I would suggest a study on the purpose of the gathering of the bride as well as a study on the purpose of the gt.

Your starting place is erroneous.
You need to start over.
It is pride leading you to keep whipping a dead horse.
No brainer...
.ditch the false doctrine

Many suggest Revelation 4:1 is an allusion to the catching up of the Church

I am undecided on that still. I would rather point to the Church being in heaven in chapter 5 of Revelation, before any of the seals are opened and ask the question: If the rapture is post-trib how did they get there?

Its of note that me and Ahwatukee agreed before I even knew the man. Now why is that? Is it because we are super spiritual and know everything? No its because we both took Scripture on face value, compared it together and line upon line constructed it in prayer.

The other side is not taking Scripture for what it says, but I see you guys jumping all over the place from Ezekiel to new earth being created to try to match your theories of what will happen.

I guess you could say, one side is taking a more allegorical approach, and one side is taking a more literal approach.

I would agree. Its a picture of the rapture. The ressurection effect of the gospel as he lifts us up to his presence. . Jesus said if he be lifted or raptured up. . he will draw all the men the father gave to Him .

The veil is rent the East gate in our mansion of many rooms above remains open until the last day . The earthquake came, the new born again spirits of the old testament saints entered in the presence of God . . . seen by many angels in heaven .From then on to be absent of the body of death is to be present with the Lord. . fast asleep or called dead asleep . . .waiting for the wake up call on the last day. Like that of Lazarus "rise" be raptured. removed those grave clothes and clothed with the righteousness of God by faith... the unseen

Matthew 27:50-52 King James Version (KJV Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded "up" the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept "arose",

In bold there is a prime example of what I meant in my previous post about allegorical interpetation.

The 24 elders are the Church Age saints.

Yes, it must be all the doctrine you can't provide or the doctrine you can't dispute, well, not in Gods Word, but you can always go back to mans explanations of "what God really meant". I don't make excuses. No gathering until after, to me means no gathering until after. It just doesn't mean no gathering till after to you.


The truth is coming. If it comes as you "interpret" it, I will be flying away or I will be one of Gods elect. Gods will be done. If, however it is as I "interpret" it, and you end up here for Satans Trib your lack of knowledge will become a big stumbling stone. So you tell me, who would you rather be? Don't be deceived by any man.

I have been reminded that if I say Peace, and there is none, to move on. So I am going to move on. Last thing,

Have you considered that you may be calling Gods Word a dead horse? I don't understand that kind of lack of Reverence for the Word. I can't imagine living in the continued state of presenting yourself as a Christian with the complete and utter disregard for the WAYS of God. Sure we are all in the flesh and we fall, but that should be the exception, rather than the rule.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Good TooFast,

You could use the same reasoning as to how the church got there in chapter 5? The key to understanding this is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:

What you have seen = everything the John wrote from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the following letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period

What will take place Later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period

That said, we are still in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the church has been gathered, then the "what must take place later" will begin.

In Rev.1:19 Jesus tells John in part, to write down "what will take place later." Then in Revelation 4:1 Jesus says "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this, which is the "what must take place later." "The what is now" which is represented by the letters to the churches is end when that voice says, "com up here and I will show you what must take place later."

Revelation 4:1 is what I call a prophetic allusion to where the church is caught up, which is supported by the fact that you never see the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" again. It disappears from use. To validate this further, the word "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, but we do not see the word "hagios" translated as "saints" within those same chapters. To be clear, the word "church" and "saints" are not used interchangeably anywhere in those chapters or afterwards. This distinction being made between these two words is a subtle clue to those who dig deeper into the word of God. The word "saint" is used 13 times throughout the rest of revelation which is referring to the saints who will come out of the great tribulation. The only exception is when the bride is receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb.

For anyone who is studying the book of Revelation, the change from solely the word "church" to solely the word "saints, should be an eye catcher. Now if both words were used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, then this would be a moot point, for it would be a non issue. However, it is an obvious issue.

In addition, in 1 Thess.4:16 we are told that the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and with the voice of the archangel and the "trumpet of God." I believe that this trumpet of God and the voice of Rev.4:1 that calls John up which is Jesus and which sounds like a trumpet, are referring to the same trumpet.

And in addition to all of this, in Rev.7 we are introduced to a group of white robed saints which no man can count and which come from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them all Gentiles.

The elder asks John "these in white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" The very fact that the elder is asking John this when He just got down writing letters to the seven churches, demonstrates that this is not the church, but a new group, otherwise the elder wouldn't be asking John who they are. On top of that, John says that he doesn't know who they are. Then the elder says, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The great tribulation is the time of God's wrath. And since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then who are these saints who will come out of the great tribulation? Obviously, because they are not referred to as being the church and because they are found to be in that time period, this group are then people who will come to believe in Christ after the church has been removed in Rev.4:1 known as the great tribulation saints, many of which will be killed because during that time because they will have kept the testimony of Jesus and will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.

Blessings!