WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

For that scenario to have traction,you have to change the setting to "after the flood" with noah,and after the judgement with lot.

But what did Jesus EMPHATICALLY state?

Before.
Before the flood
Before sodoms judgement.

Both noah and lot watched from another dimension.

It truly is a pretrib rapture

the bible ,ironically, teaches a pretrib rapture

Every point is emphatic.

The points are very plain.

To change those pretrib dynamics...a person MUST change the nt.

The game changers are
1)Jesus words
2)meeting in the air(with no "made up" uturn back to earth) With a continuance on to heaven. (As depicted at both the last supper,and with the 5 wise virgins)
3)the book of ruth (only pretribs incorporate it. All other positions skip ruth)
4) rev 14. Again all other positions skip rev 14
(I literrally own those verses...lol)

5) the setting....pretrib adherents do not need the setting changed

6)the bride/groom dimension...again,we own that one also

Ruth being the gentile bride with naomi the rights through covenant or lineage.
Both redeemed together.
Boaz is the kinsman redeemer and chooses his bride as a gentile.

Rev 5 vividly depicts the kinsman redeemer as Jesus.

You can apply the above scripture to yourself, because that is what you are doing.

Regarding the gathering of the church I have given you the scripture, but you refuse to acknowledge it. You say that Jesus never mentions gathering the church, then what do you call the following:

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"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. - John 14:1-3

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. - I Thess.4:16-17
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So, there are your scriptures that you say Jesus never said. How about that, there they are! Now read them carefully.

In the first one, Jesus is telling His disciples and all believers, that in His Father's house there are many rooms and that He is going there to prepare places for us. Now, the Father's house an be none other than heaven, which again is where Jesus went to prepare those places for al believers. Then He says that He will come back and welcome us into His presence so that we may also be where He is. Where Jesus went was the Father's house and so when He comes back for us, He will be taking us back to the Father's house. This is not difficult to understand DeighAnn, unless one does not want to understand it in favor of false teachings.

The second scripture in I Thess.4:16-17, is the fulfillment of John 14:1-3 when Jesus comes to get us. Notice that the Lord will descend from heaven and that those who will have died in Him will rise first. And then those in Christ who remain and are still alive will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Now, you may not see the word "gather" there, but you only have to use your noggin to understand that if the dead and living in Christ are rising up to meet Him in the air, then it is a gathering. The entire church will be with Christ in the air in place at one time. Since you are hung up on the word "gather" I would say that this is a gathering. A very large gathering at that. Once everyone is has been caught up together, Jesus will then take the entire church back to the Father's house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3.

Because you have a problem that the word "gather" not being used in either of the scriptures, you have rejected the context of these scriptures and their meaning. Therefore, below are synonyms describing the meaning of those who are caught up to meet Christ in the air which you can substitute for the word "gather":

1. come together; assemble or accumulate.
   "a crowd gathered in the square"
   
   congregate · convene · assemble · meet · collect · come/get together · muster · rally · converge · cluster together · crowd · mass · flock together · foregather
   bring together and take in from scattered places or sources.
   
   
   Though Christ did not use the word "gather" when referring to believers being caught up, Paul did, as you can see from the scripture below:
   
   "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come"

Do you see the word "gathered" now?

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him.

Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil for our lamps are gone out.

Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so lest there be not enough for us and you but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage and the door was shut.
(AND THAT DOOR WILL REMAIN SHUT FOR THE ENTIRE MILLENNIUM, TILL SATAN IS LOOSED A SHORT SEASON AGAIN TO SEE WHOM HE CAN DECEIVE)


AT MIDNIGHT, THEY WENT TO BUY, = DURING SATANS TRIBULATION, THEY ARE DECEIVED(LOST THEIR VIRGINITY)
THE BRIDEGROOM CAME, DOOR WAS SHUT = LORDS DAY CAME, THEY HAVE MARK

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

SO IN SUMMARY, WE ARE TOLD JESUS IS COMING, BUT SATAN IS COMING FIRST, DON'T TAKE HIS MARK, THE FOOLISH GO TAKE HIS MARK, JESUS COMES, IT IS TOO LATE TO OPEN THE EYES.

EXTENDED SUMMARY WE ARE TOLD DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME UNLESS....SATAN IS REVEALED. THE FOOLISH DON'T HEED THIS WARNING AND ARE THUS NOT ARMORED SO THEY FALL FOR ALL THE LIES, AND THOUGH THEY HAD PROMISED THEMSELVES TO BE VIRGINS UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS, THEY HAVE INSTEAD HOPPED INTO BED WITH SATAN. BY THE TIME CHRIST RETURNS, THEY ARE NO LONGER VIRGINS, THEY ARE HARLOTS. THEY ARE WITH SATANS CHILD (SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING) WHEN THE TRUE CHRIST RETURNS AND THE LORDS DAY BEGINS.


1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(WHEN THEY SAY, NOT WHEN THERE IS, BUT WHEN THEY SAY BECAUSE IT IS NOT REAL PEACE, IT IS NOT A REAL SAFETY, IT CAN'T BE BECAUSE IT IS NOT OF GOD. IT IS DECEPTION. THE WORLD HAS BEEN DECEIVED INTO THINKING IT IS, THE WHOLE WORLD EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHOS NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAMB).

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
BUT THE FOOLISH VIRGINS ARE IN THE DARKNESS, AND THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH OIL THEY DON''T HAVE ENOUGH OF THE WORD TO GET THEM THROUGH, TO MAKE THEM AWARE THEY ARE BEING DECEIVED. THEY BELIEVE A FALSE DOCTRINE THAT GIVES THEM A FALSE SENSE OF PEACE AND SAFETY, LIKE THEY ARE SOMEHOW "SPECIAL" . ITS LIKE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND GOD IS NOT A RESPECTER OF PERSONS. YOU GET WHAT YOU GOT COMING.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
THE WISE ARE FILLING THEIR VESSELS NOW. MAKING SURE THEY ARE ABSORBING THE WORD OF GOD SO THEY CAN HEED THE WARNING "DON'T BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN"
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(HE JUST TOLD US HOW TO STAY OUT OF THE WRATH OF GOD. DID YOU READ IT? PUT ON THE GOSPEL ARMOR. I AM NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. I CAN BE SITTING ON THE LAP OF SOMEONE WHO IS APPOINTED TO WRATH AND THEY WILL RECEIVE IT WHILE AT THE SAME TIME I WILL NOT FEEL A BIT OF IT. GOD DOES NOT HAVE TO "TAKE ME AWAY" TO KEEP ME SAFE. I HAVE FAITH. I AM NOT BEING TOLD TO PUT ON A WEDDING DRESS. I CAN'T EVEN HAVE ONE MADE YET BECAUSE IT IS MADE UP OF THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS AND THAT WONT BE COMPLETE UNTIL AFTER THE SAINTS HAVE GONE THROUGH THE TRIBULATION. IT DOESN'T SAY "PART OF THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS AND I DON'T ADD TO THE WORD MY OWN THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS).

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
THOSE WHO WILL BE RETURNING WITH HIM

1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Where do you come up with this? Do you have ANY Scripture to back up what you say?

You keep saying it, you keep not proving it, Why is that?

You seem to hold on to being a gentile, refusing to become a Christian


Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

THE POINT IS THE TIMING. NO WHERE DOES IT SAY anywhere here THIS IS PRE SATAN ARRIVAL. YOU SET it at pre satan because you don't believe faith in Jesus can keep you from the wrath of God. You can't be gone and be a companion in tribulation.

I do. DO YOU SEE THIS???

2Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not sOOn shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Why would they be troubled about the Lord returning? They should be glad.

The reason they were troubled is because they were facing persecution and the first post-tribbers in Church history had convinced them they are in the great tribulation, they were worried they had missed the rapture.

Makes more sense with the pre-trib reading doesn't it

When you understand that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be taking place during the same time as what Satan will be doing, then you understand that the church must be caught up prior to that event, because believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. I have been trying to get through to you on this, but you refuse to listen to the reasoning.

You're confused with a lot of different end-time scriptures. You need to do an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to understand their severity and also that God will be the One sending those plagues. Because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then He will come and gather His church prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, with the trumpets and bowls to follow during that entire period right up to when Jesus returns.

The saints that you are reading about after chapter 4 are the great tribulation saints and not the church.

Since the on-set of the church believers have suffered trials and tribulation just as Jesus said we would. However, believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Once the church is removed, then the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will follow. Everything that Satan, the beast and the false prophet do during that time will be done within the time of God's wrath. It will not be Satan's wrath nor man's wrath, but God's. It is the long prophesied day of the Lord.

Until you understand the meaning of this coming wrath and that believers are not appointed to suffer it, then you will always be in error of your teaching of the church being on the earth during the time of God's wrath.

And what point are you attempting to make with the scriptures above? Those upon whom God will be sending the strong delusion upon will be the inhabitants of the earth, not the church.

First this takes place:

2Thessalonians 2:1 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Then the following happens:

"2Thessalonians 2:2 - That ye be not sOOn shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand.

The reason that Paul says believers should not be soon shaken in mind, or troubled, is because believers are not going to be here to experience the day of the Lord, but will be gathered before that takes place. Once the church is gathered, then the day of the Lord follows, which is the wrath of God. And this is what you are not understanding. Below is the order:

Below is the chronological order:

1). our being gathered together to him

Followed by

2). The day of the Lord

Exactly right on! Paul was comforting the Thessalonians and all believers, because our being gathered to the Lord takes place prior to the day of the Lord, which is the wrath of God. There would be no comfort if they were going through God's wrath. In that case what Paul was saying would make no sense.

Obviously, there were some among the Thessalonians that had been teaching that the day of the Lord had already come. And so, as you mentioned, the Thessalonians knowing that living believers were to be caught up first with the day of the Lord to follow, they were concerned that they had somehow missed the gathering and were now going to face the time of God's wrath. However, Paul comforts them, by telling them that day will not come until the apostasy and that man of lawlessness had been revealed, which had not yet happened and has still not happened.

Most people when reading 2 Thess.2, don't pick upon the change from "our being gathered to Him" vs. "the day of the Lord." They make them as being the same event, i.e. our being gathered to Him being the same as the day of the Lord. Though these two events are in close proximately to one another, it is our being gathered to the Lord which takes place first, which is then followed by the day of the Lord, which is the time of God's wrath.

You got it down.

Why would God need to do that to THEM? They don't care what they believe. They are not the ones who can "FALL AWAY' because they have not accepted Christ. They can believe "WHATEVER". They can't be "deceived" because they "have no knowledge" like Gods Children are supposed to have. THE DELUSION is the lie to those who SHOULD KNOW THE TRUTH. They don't know the truth. They aren't the ones who will be UNFAITHFUL. Only those who are supposed to BE faithful, claim to be faithful can fall away. Satan already has HIS PEOPLE, HE WANTS GODS. It is about the powers of darkness upon the CHILDREN OF THE LIGHT.

Are you willing or not willing to stand up for God? Are you willing or not willing to overcome? Does death of the flesh seem to be just too much for you to handle? Can you not take a bit of trouble for God?

First problem is not understanding the difference between tribulation and wrath and trying to say they are the same. Are we to be
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein for the time is at hand.

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Is he saying we are his companionS IN GODS WRATH? DOES THAT SOUND RIGHT?


All of us have to be tested ESPECIALLY in this generation. God is looking for those who LOVE HIM and love Him enough to have seeked out the TRUTH of HIS PLAN. It starts out the same again and again and again DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Jesus isn't coming to deceive is He? No, HE is coming with a rod of iron on the Day of Vengeance. So WHO is it we are told not to be deceived BY? Well, we know we are not gathered UNTIL SATAN IS SITTING WHERE HE OUGHT NOT. He will be sitting in the temple of God, PROCLAIMING TO BE GOD. If you don't know he is coming first, YOU to WILL BELIEVE HE IS GOD AND YOU WILL WORSHIP HIM. The time had to be shortened because if it wasn't EVEN GODS ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED. Does that give any indication to you of how REALLY REALLY CONVINCING HE IS GOING TO BE AT PRETENDING TO BE GOD? THE WHOLE WORLD, EXCEPT those who are written in the book of life will BELIEVE HIM. DO NOT BE DECEIVED.

Not about flesh and blood. It is SPIRITUAL DEATH COMING FOR US, DEATH THAT ISN'T SEEN WITH THE EYES, MARKS THAT AREN'T SEEN WITH THE EYES, OR FELT IN THE HAND, YET SOULS FALLING AWAY FROM GOD BECAUSE GODS PEOPLE PERISH FROM A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE WORDS "DO NOT BE DECEIVED". WHY WOULD WE BE WARNED IF WE WEREN'T GOING TO BE HERE? WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT? WHY TEST ANYONE WHO KNOWS NOTHING ALREADY?



SOME PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THE WAY GOD "KEEPS" OR "WANT TO SEE ANY TRIBULATION" BUT WHAT DOES GOD SAY?

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Psalm 66:10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.
Psalm 66:11 Thou broughtest us into the net; thou laidst affliction upon our loins.
Psalm 66:12 Thou hast caused men to ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.


Psalm 26:1 Judge me, O LORD; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the LORD; therefore I shall not slide.
Psalm 26:2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.
Psalm 26:3 For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth.

Psalm 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psalm 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Revelation 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him

Have you ever noticed that chapters 2 and 3 are about the churches, then John is caught up in chapter 4 and we hear no more of the churches? Hmmmmm