WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

There is no rapture. No where in the bible does the word rapture appear. It is a man made word, inserted into Gods Word by man to think to save himself.

There will be no resurrected dead and no "changed" man until the Lords Day.

Try 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The word harpazo in the greek is translated as 'caught up'. That is the "rapture". Word rapture comes from a latin word and its in the latin bible, meaning the same thing as harpazo.

There most definately is a rapture according to 1 Cor 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and to deny it is to deny the Bible.

You quote Ezekiel and insert some strange esoteric interpretation on it as well, who has taught you this? You cannot get any of this by simply comparing Scripture with Scripture and taking the word for what it says.

The foolish virgins went into the night because they were not wise enough to fill their vessels with enough oil to get through it.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication THINK SPIRITUALY.

1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

1 Thessalonians 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God


SUBJECT - THOSE WHICH ARE ASLEEP (HAVE DIED)

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

SUBJECT - OUR BELIEF - JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD, SO DO WE, AND WE SHALL ALL RETURN

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

SUBJECT - THE LORD IS COMING AND THERE WILL BE PEOPLE ALIVE IN THE FLESH ON THAT DAY, AND WE DO NOT HAVE TO DIE FOR THEM TO RISE

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

SUBJECT - THE LORDS DAY HE DESCENDS WITH A SHOUT, VOICE OF ARCHANGEL AND TRUMP OF GOD. THE DEAD RISE.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first

SUBJECT THOSE LEFT ALIVE, MEET THE LORD, LIVE FOREVER

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

WHAT ISN'T SAID HERE? WHEN THIS HAPPENS. IT IS ONLY UPON FUTHER STUDY WE LEARN OF THE 7 TRUMPS. AND UPON FUTHER STUDY, WE LEARN THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN JESUS RETURNS AS LORD OF LORD AND KING OF KINGS AT THE 7TH TRUMP.

ALSO WHAT ISN'T SAID HERE, IS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THIS.

SUBJECT - NOT ALL DIE, BUT ALL CHANGED

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

SUBJECT - HOW LONG THE CHANGE WILL TAKE, WHEN IT WILL HAPPEN, DEAD RISE IN SPIRITUAL BODY, THEN WE CHANGE

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

SUBJECT - WHY FLESH BODIES MUST CHANGE, AND THOSE WHO CHANGE BECOME IMMORTAL

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

SUBJECT - WHEN THIS CHANGE IS COMPLETE, THERE IS NO MORE DEATH OF, IT HAS BEEN SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY

WHAT IS IT WE LEARN FROM THIS VERSE ALONE? IT CAN ONLY COME AT THE BEGINNING OF THE LORDS DAY BECAUSE IF IT WASN'T, SATAN COULDN'T KILL ANYONE, COULD HE?

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Ezekiel 13:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 13:2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

Ezekiel 13:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

Ezekiel 13:4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. (READ SONG OF SOLOMON)

Ezekiel 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD. .

HEDGES OF PROTECT. WALLS FOR THE CITY. WHEN THEY HAVE GAPS THE ENEMY COMES IN AND THE HEDGE OF PROTECTION FOR US IS THE WORD OF GOD THE FULL GOSPEL ARMOR, AND THE ENEMY WILL TRY TO COME IN THROUGH THE GAPS OF THAT KNOWLEDGE, "WITH FALSE DOCTRINE"

ONLY THE WORD OF GOD CAN PROTECT FROM THE FIERY DARTS OF SATAN. THERE IS A WAR GOING ON FOR YOUR SOUL. GODS PEOPLE PERISH FROM NOT ONLY LACK OF KNOWLEDGE BUT BY BELIEVING IN FALSE PROPHETS WHO "INFER AND SUPPOSE" RATHER THAN LETTING GODS WORD INTREPRET FOR ITSELF, WHICH CREATE " THE GAPS" IN YOUR HEDGE.

GOT TO GET INTO THE NOOKS AND CRANIES TO SEEK GODS TRUTH.

BUT IT IS SO MUCH EASIER TO JUST LISTEN TO WHAT SOME OTHER MAN WOULD TELL YOU, "SCAN OVER IT AND GIVE IT A WHITEWASH AND THEN, IT LOOKS RESPECTIBLE ENOUGH SOUNDS GOOD, SOUNDS LIKE TRUTH, ONLY IT ISN'T.

IT WON'T ENABLE YOU TO MAKE IT TO THE END. ONE REALLY GOOD RAIN AND ALL THAT WHITEWASH WASHES AWAY LEAVING YOU BARE AND EXPOSED TO THOSE DARTS COMING AT YOU. FALSE DOCTRINE SLIPPING INTO YOUR GAPS TO WHERE YOU DON'T KNOW GODS WORD. YOU CHOSE A THIN COAT OF PAINT OVER THE GOSPEL ARMOR.


Ezekiel 13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
MAN NOT WILLING TO DIG DEEP IN THE WORD. JUST BELIEVE WHAT THE PREACHER SAYS IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR THEM, AND LISTEN, EVERYONE AGREES, SO IT MUST BE TRUTH. BUT IT ISN'T, IT IS FALSE PROPHECY. THE WORDS ARE EMPTY AS FAR AS GODS TRUTH IS CONCERNED

Ezekiel 13:7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

Ezekiel 13:8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
THIS IS BIG BAD TROUBLE, THE KIND YOU NEVER WANT TO SEE. IF YOU CAN'T FIND IT IN GODS WORD AND ONLY THE WORDS OF MEN, DON'T BELIEVE IT. IF THERE IS ALWAYS AN "EXPLANATION" AND NO REAL SCRIPTURE, IT AINT REAL. ASK FOR SCRIPTURE AND IF IT IS ALL TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT TO BE PUT "ANOTHER" WAY, IT ISN'T GODS WAY.

Ezekiel 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
BELIEVING FALSE DOCTRINE IS THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO BECAUSE IT SHOWS YOU HAVE ACCESS TO TRUTH BUT HAVE DECIDED ON MANS WAY OVER GODS WORD

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
WHEN DOES THE TRUE CHRIST RETURN "WHEN YOU HEAR PEACE AND SAFETY" BECAUSE ONLY HE CAN BRING TRUE PEACE AND ALL OTHER PEACE IS JUST AN ILLUSION

Ezekiel 13:11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
Ezekiel 13:12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
WHERE IS THAT FALSE DOCTRINE NOW??

Ezekiel 13:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
OBEY THE 1ST COMMANDMENT. GOD HATES FALSE DOCTRINE. AND FOLLOWING IT WILL PUT YOU IN A PLACE YOU DON'T WANT TO BE. YEAH EVERYTHING FEELS SO FREE AND EASY HERE ON THE CC, BUT THERE IS AN ACCOUNTING. IF THE WORD OF GOD IS ALL "HOW EVER YOU PUT IT" FIND YOURSELF A TEACHER WHO WILL TEACH YOU HOW TO FIND GODS TRUTH. DON'T LET ANY MAN CONVINCE YOU THAT WHAT YOU HAVE CHECKED OUT IN THE WORD IS TRUTH. IF YOU ARE TAUGHT SOMETHING AND YOU FIND IT IS IN OPPOSITION TO SOMETHING ELSE, YOU HAVE A MISUNDERSTAND. GO SEEK IT OUT IN THE WORD.


Ezekiel 13:14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
FALSE TEACHING GOING DOWN
Ezekiel 13:15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;
IN THE MILLENNIUM THERE WILL BE NONE
Ezekiel 13:16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.
THERE WILL NEVER BE PEACE UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS, YOU MAY HEAR PEACE AND SAFETY, BUT KNOW WHEN YOU DO, THE LORD IS AT THE DOOR
Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

Ezekiel 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
WHAT GOES THROUGH ARM HOLES? ARMS. GODS OUTREACHING ARMS. fIRST THEY TRY TO BIND THEM, THEN THEY TRY TO SEDUCE YOU INTO A FALSE SENSE OF COMFORT AND SECURITY. SOMETHING LIKE WELL JUST FLY AWAY BEFORE ANY PROBLEMS OR PRESSURE COMES OUR WAY.


Ezekiel 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
THEY SELL YOU LIES, MAKE YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN SAVE YOURSELF. MARGARET MCDONALD 1830. IT IS IN DISPUTE BUT I TEND TO LEAN THIS WAY AND AS SHE HERSELF SAID OF THE VISION "AT FIRST IT SEEMED EVIL" DON'T QUOTE ME ITS BEEN YEARS.

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
GOD DOESN'T LIKE THE FLY TO SAVE YOURSELF.
Ezekiel 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
NOW YOU TELL ME IF THIS ISN'T THE NUT SHELL. GET PEOPLE TO THINK THAT EVERYWORD OF GOD ISN'T IMPORTANT, YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE TO KNOW DANIEL OR REVELATION, OR REALLY ANY PART OF THE BIBLE. JESUS IS LOVE, AND YOU ARE GOING TO FLY AWAY IN THE AIR AND ASCEND UP TO HEAVEN...ONLY THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY THAT. IT SAYS THE OPPOSITE. JESUS IS COMING HERE.

Ezekiel 13:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD


DOES IT REALLY SEEM SO HARD? DON'T BELIEVE A WORD HERE UNTIL YOU CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF. AND AS YOU SEE, I DO
"You cannot get any of this by simply comparing Scripture with Scripture and taking the word for what it says". DO THIS. BUT I AM NOT BEYOND RESEARCH. BUT WHAT EVER I BRING BACK IS COMPARED TO ALL SCRIPTURE AND IF IT DOESN'T FIT IT DOESN'T STAY.

Good day TooFast!

This is one of those topics akin to OSAS, or annihilationism, which are volatile topics . In a nut-shell, I believe that salvation is by God's sovereign choice, which He made before the world began. I will state the reasons why and in no particular order. First we have the following:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

In many scriptures, there is, for a lack of a better words, the opposite result. For example:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Now, everyone loves this verse, because many just see the positive aspect of it, which is eternal life. However, what is also contained within that verse is that those who do not believe in His Son will perish. This is the negative result. It is the same with the previous scripture. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. The reference to "unless the Father draws him" infers that the Father does not draw everyone. For if He did, then there would be no need to make that statement, because He would be drawing everyone. Then there is the following:

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain." - Rev.13:8

"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come." - Rev.17:8

As I am sure that you have noticed, what I am pointing out here, is the fact that both of these scriptures mention those whose names were not written in the book of life from the creation of the world, which tells us two things, 1). That there were names that were not written the book of life and that took place before the world began. And 2). that there were names that were written in the book of life before the world began, which would be those whom God chose. Then we have Paul in His on-going teaching regarding grace vs. the Law, but within it, he reveals some important information regarding the subject at hand.

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Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

(God predetermined or predestined this from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) based solely on His sovereign will and not because of anything that He knew the people would do.)
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Before either of the twins were born, God says, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated (favored less).

God also said to Pharaoh, "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you." I'm guessing that Pharaoh's name was not one of those that was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. For God raised him up for that specific purpose. God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and hardens whom He wants to harden.

In addition, in scripture we read the words "elect" and "chosen." These words also have an opposite meaning, in that, they also infer that there are those who are not elected or chosen. In using these words, they infer the opposite as well.

You and others might say, isn't that unfair? No! God is not being unfair. I found this explanation regarding this issue which I think is a pretty good:

If a man was standing out on a street corner and handing $20 bills, but only to people those he chose, would he be unfair to those who he did not give $20 to? Some might say, yes, but the fact is that, it is his money and he can give it to whomever he wants. None of those people did anything to deserve the man's money, but he gave it to those he chose. The man is not being unfair, because none of people deserved the money in the first place.

It is the same with human beings. All people are worthy of death because of sin. However, God in His sovereignty, chose to save some out of humanity. Therefore, since everyone is guilty of sin and because of sin, death. God is not being unfair, because those others that He did not chose are getting what they would rightfully deserve because of sin. Paul something similar:

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One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
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Now, does this mean that those whom God has chosen don't have free will? No! If that was the case, then why is the word of God filled with warnings to believers if believers are saved no matter what they do or how they live? Those whom God chose are still able reject His calling. Regarding this, those who are called are still required to have faith. Jesus mentions something of note in the letter to the church in Sardis:

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But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments, and because they are worthy, they will walk with Me in white. 5Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.
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This another one of those opposite results that I spoke about earlier. By Jesus saying, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life," it infers that those believers who have soiled their garments and do not overcome, the Lord can and will blot out their names from the book of life. Otherwise if the blotting out of peoples names from the book of life was not something that was not possible, He would not have mentioned it. It is a subtle warning.

I hope that this explains my position regarding this topic

It's not "Who" God's wrath will fall upon, but everyone who is left on the earth after the church has been gathered will be exposed to God's plagues of wrath. This is why Jesus continually tells believers to watch and be ready, so that day doesn't take us by surprise.

Unlike Noah and Lot, since God's coming wrath will be poured out upon the whole earth, then there is no Ark for us to get into to escape. Likewise, we can't escape to another city as Lot did and that because God's wrath will be unprecedented and unequaled to anything that has taken place previously. Therefore, the church must be removed prior to all of this.



The above is true for those who will enter into the millennial kingdom in there mortal bodies. Satan and his angels will be in the Abyss during that time and therefore unable to deceive mankind as he has been doing since the beginning. So there will be no influence from him and the powers of darkness during the millennial kingdom. During that time the church, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints, will all be ruling with Christ during the millennial kingdom. Those who enter the millennial kingdom will be those who will kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark and who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. These along with the remnant of Israel will repopulate the earth during that time.

Seriously DeighAnn, you need to get "Satan's tribulation" our of your vocabulary. Everything that Satan, the beast and the false prophet do, will be apart of God's wrath. There is no "Satan's tribulation." This going to be God's show and He will be using Satan, the beast and the false prophet to accomplish His will during that time. It is the day of the Lord

Yes, you are correct in that, at the last trumpet Jesus will come and gather His church as stated in 1 Cor.15:52. Since there are many types of trumpets which signal different events, which of these is Paul speaking of? Are all trumpets the same? Do they all signal the same event? It is important that we not pigeonhole the word "trumpet." For example:

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

The trumpet mentioned above is to signal his angles to go throughout the entire earth and gather the elect, which are the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period. These are those who will be allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom being still in their mortal bodies. Some have misinterpreted those that the angels are gathering as representing those going up in the rapture. However, angels do not gather people at the resurrection. At that time, the Lord will call up the dead and the living will be changed and we will be responding to the call to "come up here" and that under our own power.

I would also point out that there are also seven trumpet judgments, which also have nothing to do with the "last trumpet." It is important to understand that, those seven angels will be sounding trumpets which will each initiate a plague of wrath. In opposition, the last trumpet is a blessed event, called the blessed hope, where the dead and living in Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Last trumpet = A blessed event where the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air

Seven trumpets = Plagues of wrath

The last trumpet and the seven trumpets are the opposite of each other. Just because there is an angel sounding the seventh trumpet does not mean that the seventh is the last trumpet that Paul was referring to. That is a false assumption on your part. In fact, the seven trumpet judgments were written in the book of Revelation which Paul never even saw. You need to do your own studies and stop repeating what you have heard and adopted from false teachers, that is if you are truly looking for the truth.

If the scripture states that "the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air," how is that not a gathering? For all of the dead in Christ from the beginning of the church up until the resurrection, will be raise and caught up in the air. Immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed and caught up with them. At that point the entire church will meet Christ in the air. I'd call that a gathering. However, if you are looking in scripture to see the word "gathered" regarding this event, I have one for you:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."

In the scripture above, Paul is referring to his teaching in I Thess.4:16, when the living church is changed and caught up. Here he uses the words "our being gathered together."

More accurately, there is no scripture stating that God's wrath is Satan's tribulation. Please show me that scripture.

There are two events future events:

1). The Lord's appearing to call up His church

2). The Lord's return to the earth to end the age

It is because you do not understand nor recognize that these are two separate events, that you err in your end-time interpretation.


The gathering of the church:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age:

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

No, we do not read the word of God the same and I thank God that I do not read it as you do, because I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word. Your problem, like so many others, is that you have been influenced by false teachers and have adopted their teachings and are unwilling to receive the truth which is what I have been sharing with you.

Actually, the Lord says this much later about those nations, not the individual boys, as Paul was quoting Malachi.

God elected Jacob according to the seed line, not for salvation. Election always points to service not salvation.

Agree with you brother. Some say the Church will go through the tribulation and I always ask, which part of His Church? The Church is the entire body of Christ including the head which is Jesus. If the Church goes through the tribulation, then the whole body goes through. This would include Stephen, Peter, Paul, etc..all believers from the resurrection.

The whole point of what Paul was saying and the point I'm making is that, salvation is not obtained by doing good works, nor by God looking ahead to see who would believe and who wouldn't. But salvation is given to those whom God, by His Sovereign will, chose before the world began. It doesn't matter when it was said or who said it. But it is the content that I am concerned about. Also, Paul was not quoting Malachi either, but was bringing to light what God had decided regarding Esau and Jacob, as well as Pharaoh.

In addition, since the tribulation is still future, then it is impossible for Stephen, Peter and Paul to go through it, since they've long since died and also since believers are not appointed to go through God's wrath The tribulation will involve only that last generation.

How could believers from 2000 years ago and throughout the following centuries, go through the tribulation period? Since the tribulation, which is the period of God's wrath hasn't begun yet, how could all of those people who have died go through it?

I find it hard to believe that you would make a statement like that. Paul didn't see the book of Revelation so he didn't know what trump was what? And now the last trump and the 7 trumps are opposite? WOW. I would ask if you have any doctrine on that but I think it is best if I don't. My rightly dividing the word and yours are incompatible.

I don't make assumptions and then base the rest of what I learn on that assumption. You say "this means" and go on from there when that isn't what is written. It isn't a "fill in" whatever fits, disregard what doesn't type of book for me. God will judge, well, me anyhow. Apparently, you will just be skipping that whole death and judgment part, because some how, it doesn't apply.

You have assumed incorrectly that I do not do my own studies, then followed with another false statement, stating it like it is a fact. . You then follow that by "suggesting" I am not truly looking for truth. Please, don't do personal attacks from a position of no knowledge on me.

God has set out for us the way we are to behave in a situation such as this. So lets.

The Romans passage is not about salvation but service. The Lord elected Jacob not Esau as the seed line. And Paul was quoting Malachi. The context is nations, God loves the nation that came from Jacob and hated the Edomites.

2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Agree, I was addressing those opposed.

I’m in agreement with you brother. I was opposing those who say the Church will be going through the tribulation. If the Church is going through the tribulation, then that means the entire body. This is absurd.

Matthew 24:31 has a gathering from the four corners of the earth.

You have first fruits(Jesus and those resurrected in Matt 27), main harvest(the rapture of the Church), gleanings (Survivors of the tribulation). The gleanings are the *corners* which are left

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

As I said in the previous post, that is not the point. The point is that, God is the One who did the choosing for salvation and that from before the world began. It has nothing to do with what Paul is quoting or not quoting. It is irrelevant! The point about Esau and Jacob is that Paul used it to demonstrate that God chose Jacob over Esau before they were even born, before they had done anything good or bad. This is to show that God's selection process was not based on man's efforts or desires, but by God's Sovereign choice. It is the same with Pharaoh, God said that He raised Pharaoh up for the very purpose of displaying His power by all that God did to him through Moses.