Is total depravity (radical corruption) a biblical teaching?

Well, here it is for you to answer.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-biblical-teaching.187718/page-4#post-4072823

It is called common courtesy my friend. In this thread he asked me questions in several posts and I answered every question he asked me, iirc. Now, he should be courteous enough to return the favor. I know he is under no obligation to answer me, but I do expect the same courtesy I extended to him. That's not too much to ask of him, right?

Well, this is a discussion board where we debate. In debates, there are questions asked and questions answered. If one side decides to only ask questions and then when they are asked a question and they do not answer it, then it ceases to be a debate. If he asked me a question I would answer it. It's not too much to ask the same from him. But I digress.

The version of "free-will" theology you describe here is not how I or any other "free-willers" I know describe it or believe.

On which specific points do you think I'm misrepresenting the position?

By the way, I believe you are accurate in that free-willers don't have a coherent explanation of their theology, in general, and have simply accepted it based on their authority figures such as pastors. Yet, the presuppositions underly their belief system whether they explain it that way or not.

Many of them are perfectly fine with heaving boulders at Reformed believers, without fully understanding or explaining their own beliefs. But, they do not want their presuppositions laid bare so that they are accountable for them.

My conviction is this: free-willers believe that the unsaved man must dredge up faith and repentance from a stony heart, in order to receive a heart of flesh. Reformed believers are convicted that God gives the man a heart of flesh to replace his heart of stone, from which flows faith and repentance.

Now, the attempt of free-willers is often to diminish the radical corruption (which is what total depravity refers to) resulting from the Fall, and to claim that man, with his stony heart, can produce faith and repentance. Some altogether deny the necessity of regeneration at all, even after salvation is received.

That is why many of them believe in a two-tiered system, where there are "carnal Christians" and "spiritual Christians".

Anyways, perhaps you can clarify where you think I am misrepresenting the position of free-willers.

Here is my representation of their theology:


FREE-WILLER RESPONSE

The free-willer response to total depravity (radical corruption) is free will or human ability.

Although human nature was seriously affected by the Fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power either to cooperate with God’s spirit and be regenerated, as a product of this cooperation, or to resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to his salvation.

NOTE: I am using the phrase free-willer to describe the Arminian position, as well as the position of many others with similar theology. Reformed believers don’t believe man is a robot, and doesn’t make any decisions. Reformed theology teaches that man’s will is subject to his fallen nature, therefore he makes sinful choices as an overall orientation. In the case of believers, man’s will is subject to his regenerate nature, therefore he makes righteous choices as an overall orientation.

The analogy of a fish in a pond is good to understand this. A fish can swim around his pond all he wants, but he isn’t free to jump out of the pond and live on land.

Humans do not have libertarian free will, like some claim, but they have creaturely free will. This concept is biblically solid, although the exact phrases are not used.

I believe I can make choices. I also give God 100% credit for my faith.

I was definitely in unbelief and without God covering me with His blood I would be damned, and blind as I was I had no idea.

Totally depraved as far as I see it.


God called me while I had no understanding of His inspired written word or anything spiritual in nature.

I was drawn to Christ, and His words convicted me.

The Holy bible rang true... even when I didn't fully understand things after multiple prayers and read throughs.

I did not choose to believe the words in it, but I did choose to pick it up, but God called me to it.


Was this fated always? God knows all, so before He made me does that mean He knew what I'd do?

Yup.

Does that mean I never had a choice?

... Wether or not I did, He is just and He is to thank for my salvation being gained and maintained....


I do not think this is double minded, and also think sometimes it's a stumbling block to cling to a specific doctrine or fight against it when we are specifically talking to individuals and we as individuals cling to His written word over the doctrines that come from it, no?

that has been stated many times but he just plows on

it doesn't fit his Calvinistic teaching so best not to acknowledge it other than to refute and crow Calvin's call yet again

for example, this gem:

Although human nature was seriously affected by the Fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness

is totally false. we understand that we cannot help ourselves in any 'spiritual' sense and must believe in Christ and receive the Holy Spirit God promised would dwell in believers

just about every point he brings up can be AND has been, debunked, but the true Calvinist will not acknowledge it

it is part of their teaching to just keep repeating things even if they are not true

you can find that online

really?

would one of you like to post those scriptures?

didn't think so...

I listed numerous Scriptures on this thread to support my position.

I don't discuss these topics with the unsaved because it is more like calculus-level understanding of the mechanics behind salvation, but it is clearly Scriptural.

Additionally, I don't know if you have been watching forum posts long, but my explanation of Reformed theology results from numerous attacks calling it demonic, or calling Reformed people idiots for believing it. Often their claims concerning Reformed theology are blatant misrepresentations.

By the way, with regards to your salvation, praise God!

It is good that you have the focus on God and not on self, unlike many who think little of praising God, but somehow manage to pat themselves on the back for their wise decision. Does the Sunday School teacher credit God for the salvation of a little boy in her class, or does she pat the little boy on the head and praise him for his decision?

By the way, I don't believe your heart of stone generated faith and repentance. Instead, God gave you a heart of flesh, and from this heart of flesh, faith and repentance issued forth. A heart of stone can't generate faith and repentance..so none of the glory belongs to man, and all belongs to God.

I did not read all of the posts yet, sorry if that was rude.... I only wanted to share my personal testimony and thoughts on the subject and how it related to my walk with God.


I believe all of God's children are "reformed", in that we are made new and born again. A spiritual birth which has followed our physical birth.


I believe this happens by grace (not earned) through faith (believe,trust,confidence) in Christ.

Not only as a prerequisite but as the sole reason we can enter heaven and aren't justly punished as we deserve.


I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, but now that I'm saved I find myself wanting to do what He wants.... and when I do what my flesh wants I feel... awful even if it's just not being as generous as I could be... even with time or energy or patience ...giving 50% instead of 100%...


He saved me
He keeps me saved
He chastens me to not walk as I did before
He keeps me and encourages me to walk in His ways



as His children I'm sure all of our happiest moments are when we are useful to Him....

I bet that's why you made this thread...

but....

"By the way, I don't believe your heart of stone generated faith and repentance. Instead, God gave you a heart of flesh, and from this heart of flesh, faith and repentance issued forth. A heart of stone can't generate faith and repentance..so none of the glory belongs to man, and all belongs to God."

I have never met anyone who would argue that anyone other than God gives us a new heart.....

this is part of being born again....no?

Correct, the difference is whether regeneration comes before faith and repentance, or afterwards.

Reformed says before, free-willer says after.

Anyways I liked your remarks. It doesn't matter if you didn't read all the posts..they were pretty long.

I think we can all agree repentance when used in this way is a product of, not a cause for. (you cannot repent if you do not even have faith in the fact He is good and you are bad and you need Him)

Change of mind, through believing the truth

Change of inner man, through His works in us


3341. metanoia ►

That is the difference, but does it make any difference?

The Apostles never spoke about someone being regenerated before repentance and faith?

LOL! What is so hilarious is that your belief in "creaturely free will" is essentially what most "free-willers" that I know believe. They will state if differently but it is essentially the same thing.

You try to characterize free-willers as believing that they help God to save themselves! The sentences below in dark print that you wrote to describe "free-willers belief" is hogwash. No freewiller that I know says that. That is your twisted perception of their belief.


The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to his salvation. (I do not believe what is here in dark print!)

Calvinists are taught to ignore the objections, because they will surely follow as day follows night, so they simply continue to publish the lies as though no one had said anything

apparently, this is common to all indoctrinated Calvinists who believe and sometimes take to the extreme, this ideology and not just attributable to the Calvinists here

so far, I would state they are running true to form

Yes,JESUS did not come to judge the first time but HE came to save although If HE were to judge the first time HIS judgement would be true.

The so-called elect do not need to answer any objections. They are already on cloud nine. Or should we say as pleased as Punch?