When does the millennium begin?

Some say the millennium is now and the saints are ruling with Christ in heaven now, most people would say that the millennium begins once Jesus returns.

What is important to me is the doctrine of imminency, so whichever view of eschatology I end up latching myself on to, it has to be one that includes an imminent return, I see that in the Scriptures. That would leave amillennialism and pre-trib premillennialism. Both have an imminent return, amillennialism is simple yet the explanations given by them to Revelation 20 are tough sell for most people.

We need to be careful that we do not let our own preferences mold our eschatology, but rather choose one we conclude is the most biblical and has the best explanations for all the verses, with as few ends left untied as possible.

Thats the confirmation that i expected.

Good day TooFasTurtle,

First of all, those who believe that we are currently living in the millennial kingdom are preterists and amillennialists.

The full preterist believes that all end-time events, including all of the events listed in Matthew and Revelation, have already taken place and revolves around the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. In order to believe this, they must allegorize/symbolize scripture, so that the events become non-literal or represented by some other event. Yet, right in the first line of Revelation it states "The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show His servants "the things which must take place in quickness." Those "things" which must take place, are the plagues of God's wrath which is covered from chapter 6 thru 18 of Revelation. Their belief is that the church is going to Christianize the entire world in preparation for the Lord's return. Regarding this, all one has to do is turn on the news to see that this is not going to happen, but sin is growing worse and worse. In fact, God's word states clearly that His wrath must come first which will end with the Lord returning to the earth to end the age.

Amillennialists, are those who do not believe in a literal thousand year period even though the words "a thousand years" is referred to six times in Revelation 20. Instead, they interpret the thousand years as being an unknown amount of time of which we are still living in today. They get this false interpretation from scriptures like Psalms 50:10 where God states "for every beast of the forest is Mine—the cattle on a thousand hills." Therefore, since the reference to "a thousand hills" is figurative of an unknown number of cattle and hills, they take this and erroneously apply the meaning to the reference of "a thousand years" mentioned in Revelation. Instead of interpreting the thousand years within the context of Revelation, they apply the figurative meaning from Psalms 50:10.

The following are literal events which must take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, which was prophesied back in Daniel 2.

Nebuchadnezzar had a dream of a statute with a head of gold, chest and arms of silver, belly and thighs of bronze and legs of iron, as well as ten toes made of partly baked clay and iron. Each section represents the major ruling kingdoms of the world, with the ten-toed kingdom representing that last kingdom under the beast.

Head of gold = Babylon

Chest and arms of silver = Medo/Persia

Belly and thighs of bronze = Greece

Legs of iron = Rome

Ten-Toed kingdom of partly baked clay and iron = a future extension of Rome which will not have the same strength as when it was pure iron.

Combined, the statue represents all human government up to the end of the age. Regarding these governments is the following:

As you watched, a stone was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. Then the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were shattered and became like chaff on the threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that had struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

The stone/rock that is cut out of the mountain without human hands is figuratively representing Jesus. And the reference to the stone falling on the feet of the statue, is referring to when the great day of God's wrath comes via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will decimate the majority of the earths population and dismantle all human government. This is represented by when the rock strikes the feet of the statue where it becomes like chaff on the threshing floor, with the wind carrying them away without a trace, i.e. the end of human government. Then the last verse states that the stone that struck the statues becomes a great mountain which fills the whole earth, which is in reference to Christ's thousand year reign, the millennial kingdom.

Since this stone falling on the feet of the statue represents the dismantling of all human kingdoms, then the millennial kingdom ruled by Christ could not have yet taken place. For as you yourself can see, all human government is still in existence. Furthermore, we have not even come to that future ten-toed kingdom.

In further support of the millennial kingdom being yet future, we have the chronological order as the tribulation taking place which is represented by the seals, trumpets, bowls and the plagues which the two witnesses bring. After the 7th bowl judgment is poured out, which completes God's wrath, then we have Jesus returning to the earth to end the age as revealed in Revelation 19:11-21.

During this same time we have the beast and the false prophet being captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire.

Following that we have all of the wicked, those who rejected Christ and worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark, being killed by the double-edged sword which proceeds from the Lord's mouth.

Following that a mighty angel seizes Satan and throws him into the Abyss and seals it over him where he will be imprisoned during that thousand years.

Since all of those events listed above must take place prior to the millennial kingdom and the very fact that Satan is restricted in the Abyss during the same thousand years, it demonstrates without a doubt that we have not yet come to that thousand year period. That is unless you believe that that Satan is currently restricted in the Abyss so that he can't deceive the nations any longer (Ha!). Since his imprisonment takes place after the Lord's return to the earth and since Jesus has not yet return, it should be obvious that we are not living in the millennial kingdom.

So, does your response means that you agree or disagree? It is the true explanation of that scripture. There is no reason to make the third day as referring to future years. In support of this, didn't Jesus say "'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow?" Since that is what He was doing at that time, why would you interpret the third day as something taking place in the future?

Thank you brother. I will go through what you have said. You seem to have it all mapped out. Would you put yourself in the dispensational pre-trib premillennial category, if I may ask?

I have already ruled out premillennialism with post-trib rapture due to its failure to count the imminency I see clearly presented in the Scriptures. Postmillennialism is utter madness due to its false idea of the world being Christianized while the Bible speaks of an apostasy in the end times (Which I believe we are in).

Hello again!

The ginormous problem with the post-trib belief is that, it would put the church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture makes clear that we are not appointed to suffer. The underlying principle regarding this is that, Jesus took upon Himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. When we received Christ, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Since God's wrath is going to be poured out upon the whole world, then the church cannot be on the earth during this time. In addition to this, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Anyone who has done even a cursory study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments would know that there will be no where to escape to on this earth. Therefore, the promise that the Lord made to believers in John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:13-18, will be fulfilled prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath. In addition to this, Jesus promise to all believers who endure patiently, that He will keep them out of the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world (Rev.3:10)

I definitely agree with you in that, we are living in the end times, of that there is no doubt.

I asked the Lord what to tel you as i was frustrated:
Do you want to remain blind?

You are the one who started out by claiming that we are in the Great Tribulation, without a shred of biblical or real world evidence to support that. Others (including myself) have shown you that you are seriously mistaken. So who is being wilfully blind?

Could you tell me what in your opinion is the strongest evidence against amillennialism outside of Revelation 20?

Could you tell me what in your opinion is the strongest evidence for dispensational pre-trib rapture?

I have a tooth ache but I would not say this is the great tribulation because Jesus says it will be a time in which no flesh would be saved if those days were not shortened. The population of the world is increasing, not decreasing.

Gee, where do I start? Well, for one thing, by excluding Revelation 20, you would be removing the direct proclamation of that thousand year kingdom. However, we have scriptures that refer to that time period whose characteristics of which could not possibly have happened in any time in history which I believe I already posted and will post here again.

"The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the goat; the calf and young lion and fatling will be together, and a little child will lead them.

7The cow will graze with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8The infant will play by the cobra’s den, and the toddler will reach into the viper’s nest.

9They will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the sea is full of water.

In the context above, Isaiah is describing peace and harmony between prey and predator animals. Therefore, one would have to ask the question as to when this state has ever existed since it was written. The answer of course would be that this state has never existed between prey and predator animals. I know because I watch the "Blue Planet" series and Nat Geo.

When has a little child or an adult for that matter, been able to stick their hands in a viper's nest and not be bitten, or play near a Cobra's den and not be attacked?

When in the history of the world has the lion eaten straw like the Ox? The answer is, never!

The reason is found in verse 9, which says that "They will neither harm nor destroy" and that because at that time the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord.

"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

As the scripture above states, "if a man fails to reach a hundred years old he will be considered accursed." Today if a human being reaches a hundred years old, they are in an elite class because in comparison to the earths population, not many people reach a hundred years old. In addition, if a person dies at a hundred he will be thought to be a mere child. This demonstrates that the longevity of life will be as it was pre-flood. Since then, when has this characteristic ever existed after the flood? Never! Let's continue with the next scripture"

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." - Isaiah 2:4

When has the world ever not trained for war or have not been at war? When has "He" (Jesus) ever judged between the nations and settled disputes between them or when has mankind beaten their weapons of war into plowshares and pruning hooks?

The point I am making with all of the above, is that though the term "a thousand years" is nowhere mentioned in any of those scriptures, they are characteristics that have not yet taken place in any time in history nor do they currently exist. Therefore, since God's word must be fulfilled, then those conditions must at some time come into being. The only place that we can assign them to, is that time period of a thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20, which is initiated when the Lord physically returns to the earth to end the age, as described in Matt.24:29-31 and Rev.7:1, 19:11-21.

Since none of those conditions listed above have ever existed and currently don't exist, and it can't be speaking about the eternal state, then there has to be another time period for those to come into being, which is that thousand year situated between this current age and the eternal state.

* Current age

* Millennial kingdom

* Great white throne judgment

* Eternal state

Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives: 1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy, and 2) a view of the uniqueness of Israel as separate from the Church in God’s program.

I believe that I have already provided scriptural evidence for a pre-trib gathering of the church in a previous post as well. But here it is again.

The biggest problem with mid and post gathering of the church, is that it would put the living church through part of or through the entire wrath of God. Regarding God's coming wrath and the believer, scripture states the following:

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"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! - Rom.5:9

"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath." 1 Thess.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

"For the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it." - Rev.6:17

"Because you have kept My command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. - Rev.3:10
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Now, there are those who claim that those references to God's wrath is referring to the great white throne judgment and not to His coming wrath upon the earth. First of all, we as believers are not neither appointed to suffer God's coming wrath upon this earth nor His condemning wrath at the great white throne judgment. Believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer any wrath at all and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer. God's wrath has been satisfied for the believer.

Regarding the church being here during the time of God's wrath, (the tribulation period), anyone who has even done a literal cursory study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments would understand that everyone on the earth will be exposed to those plagues of wrath. For example, when those demonic beings are released out of the Abyss at the 5th trumpet, the only group who are exempt from their stinging torment will be the 144,000, as declared in Rev.9:4-5. To include the church as being protected would be to add to the scripture. Another example would be trumpets 1 & 2.

At the sounding of the 1st trumpet, a third of the earth and a third of the trees are burned up. You can't have a third of the earth being burned up without there being a great number of fatalities. Is God going to make sure that all believers are not in that third?

At the sounding of the 2nd trumpet, an object comes through the atmosphere and hits in one of the oceans, the result being that all of the ships in that body of water are destroyed and that by a giant Tsunami's. How many people will be on those ships? Is God going to make sure that no believe is on any of those ships or in any of the cities, towns or villages on any of those shores that touch that body of water? Because all of those people are going to die too!

At the 4th bowl judgment and angel pours out his bowl on the sun giving it power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth, searing them with intense heat. How would the church be protected from this? Force fields? Lots of sunscreen?

Another consideration is as follows:

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation." - Rev.13:7

If the church was to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, then the saints mentioned above would have to be the church. However if you will notice, they are not being protected, for the scripture states that the beast is permitted to wage war against them and to conquer them. Not to worry though, for the saints referred to are those great tribulation saints wearing white robes which no man can count, revealed in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will have become believers after the church will have been gathered. If you will notice, the last time the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is mentioned is at the end of chapter 3. From that time forward, the church is never mention during the narrative of God's wrath.

My point in all this, is that you can see that it is ridiculous to think that Jesus is first going to send His bride through His wrath and then gather whoever is left afterwards. Common sense tells us that the Lord is going to keep His promise of gathering His church prior to His and the Father's wrath. In addition to this, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since His wrath is going to come upon the whole entire world, then the church must be removed prior to that time. Furthermore, we have Jesus promise for all who endure patiently and overcome, that He would keep us out of that time of wrath:

"Because you have kept My command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

That hour of trial is referring to the time of God's wrath, also called the day of the Lord.


I hope that this answers your question

Blessings in Christ!

It is likely that the Lord has called you to preach on eschatology. You have it all mapped out. I have looked through the Scriptures and I am in agreement with you that the only time period to which those verses in Isaiah would be a millennium here on earth. I also agree that logically thinking it would make no sense for Jesus to put His bride through His wrath. That is non-sensical. I still maintain that the greatest proof for pre-trib rapture is the imminent return verses, even the Apostle Paul was expecting Jesus to return in his lifetime, as is evident by his using of the word "WE who are alive and remain".

Thank you for bringing forth the truth of the Scriptures on this matter. I hope everyone else has been as blessed by this as I have. I hope to have my eschatology as mapped out as you, where do you suggest I start? I have read through the book of Revelation now and made some notes and I noticed that there are people in heaven before the seals are opened.

I would like to ask you: Who are the 24 elders?

Thank you for recognizing the teaching! Praise God that it was a blessing to you and hopefully to others. Yes, I also agree regarding to the imminent return of the Lord. And you are correct in that, immanency is obvious in that when Paul was giving his detailed account of the resurrection and the living church being changed and caught up in I Thess.4:13-17 and 1 Cor.15:51-53, he says "After that, we who are alive and remain will be changed and caught up together with them," which would demonstrate that Paul included himself. And every believer has been looking for the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him ever since, ergo, immanency. Not to mention all of the scriptures which urge believers to watch and be ready, like the good man of the house who if he had known at what time the thief was going to break in he would have waited up for him. In the same way that we don't know at what time a thief would break in, neither do we know when the Lord is going to appear and call us up. Therefore, believers always have to be ready and watching.

Regarding having your eschatology mapped out, it comes from nothing but studying every book and scripture that have anything to do with end-time events. For example, Much of Daniel is a sister book to Revelation, hitting on much of the same information regarding the ruler, that antichrist, the little horn, the beast and his boastful words. Regarding him, read Daniel 7 and 9:24-27. There too many scriptures which touch on end-time events to list. But Daniel would be a good place to start. for you will see many things corresponding to revelation, plus additional information. Of course if you have any questions about anything in particular, I would be more than happy to share information and/or point to the related scriptures.

Some think that the 24 elders are representing only the church and that could very well be. But I kind of lean towards the twenty four elders representing the church and representing Israel, twelve from each. And the reason is because of the following description of the New Jerusalem:

"The city had a great and high wall with twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve angels at the gates." - Rev.21:12

"The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." - Rev.21:14

The names of the twelve tribes representing Israel written on the gates of the city and the names of the twelve apostles written on the twelve foundations of the city walls representing the church.

That's just my own personal thinking on this based on the above, but it seems plausible.

1 Thes. 5:1-2&4
1 - But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
4 - But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Now, now, what Day is the Day of the Lord or the Lord's Day? John the Apostle was caught up into the Lord's Day - by the way, John was caught up TWICE, FIRST he was caught up and BROUGHT FROM THE FIRST CENTURY(~95AD) to the twenty-first century, even the time of Apocalypse, that is THIS seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day IN WHICH WE ARE LIVING, that is the Lord's Day - Rev. 1:v.10.

THE DAY OF THE LORD IS NO LONGER A MYSTERY, ABSOLUTELY.
Yeah, the Day of the Lord is no longer a MYSTERY, absolutely, EXCEPT to those who are still in darkness, to those who are of the night, and not of the day, and also to those which are sleeping like the foolish virgins. - 1 Yhes.4:2-3

See, having been brought here in this time of Apocalypse-Revelation-, that is the seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, or seventh and last millennium, John the Apostle heard behind him a great voice like a trumpet. It was the voice of the archangel Michael who spoke to John, under the command of JESUS and sent for to tell John all the things that must happen in this present time. Actually many things are already happening in fulfillment of all things that were revealed, for example, the present destruction of the Devil's world that still exists. Revelation 11:v.18.

Believe you and all or not, John made mysteriously a travelling through the time and in the space, from the FIRST century(around 95AD) unto this 21th century, that is the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day, Apocalypse's Day or Lord's Day, by the way, something similar to the rapture of Philip from the way that goes down from Jerusalem unto Gaza to the place called Azotus- Acts 8:v.39-40. Being here in this Lord's Day John the Apostle spoke/ talked with the Archangel Michael, as prophesied Daniel 12:v.1-3, even him who will now cast down Satan from heaven into the earth, and afterwards Satan will be cast down into the bottomless pit.

After that or LATER John was caught up AGAIN exactly from this time-the Lord's Dya- unto a higher place, yeah, from this time-the Lord's Day- where he was FIRST, unto the 3rd heaven, that is the 3rd heavenly place in Christ- Rev.4:v.1-right?

For better understanding, John was caught up FIRST to the environment of the Lord's Day, Apocalypse's Day, in which we are living. Having written the chapters 1-to-3 of Revelation, he was brought within the environment of the 3rd heaven as a host, being caught up from the Lord's Day, where he was before.

Let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Peter the Apostle prophesied, saying: 2Peter 3:v.10-13 (Hear who has ear to hear)

10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (the FIRST and the SECOND heavens) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the EARTH also and the WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.
Actually many things are already happening in fulfillment of all things that were revealed, for example, the present destruction of the Devil's world that still exists. Rev. 11:v.18. The World of Devil is already being demolished, and at the end of this demolition of the Devil's world will be a total chaos, a total ruin, like an implosion, something similar to the fall of the World Trade Center.
2Peter 3:v.11-13
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God (the Lord's Day has arrived), wherein the heavens (the FIRST and the SECOND heavens) being on FIRE shall be DISSOLVED (the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for NEW heavens and a NEW earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Again: the Day of the Lord is no longer a MYSTERY, absolutely, EXCEPT to those who are still in darkness, to those who are of the night, and not of the day, and also to those which are sleeping like the foolish virgins.

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

There is yet a little time to wake up. So, wake up, brothers.

I do have some questions. What do you believe will happen next? I see the signs that tell me the rapture is around the corner, everything is ready for the mark of the beast technology and for the world wide surveillance required by the antichrist, and on top of that we have troubling news when it comes to A.I. and science playing god, recently they created fake blood that can be used instead of donated real blood.

The end of this world of Devil is the beginning of a new world. Luke 20:35-36

1 Cor. 15:v.24-26 - These happenings occur within the millennium of Christ, that is the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day. By the way, this is the millennium in which we are living. It is necessary to wake up.

24 The end comes, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 20:v.1-6 will happen within the millennium of Christ or the Lord's Day

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If we were in the millennium we would have satan bound and lion eating straw with an ox and the cow grazing with the bear.

No questions, you are 100% correct. I would only add, that from Adam until JESUS had passed around 4,000 years. Therefore 6,000 years has passed until the presente time, Actually we are in the beginning of the FIRST century of the seventh and last millennium, the seventh and last Day.

There is yet a little time to wake up. So, wake up, brothers.

Wake up, brother. First it is necessary the former Cherub manifest himself, the son of perdition, the MAN of sin, and he is at door.

2Thes.2 v.4&9-12 -

4 - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.