One being God
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Oh I don't know, maybe at Hebrews 1:3, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his PERSON, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" Does this look like "heresy" to you ps? And btw, how many persons are identified in this verse? Also keep in mind that I can go on forever "pounding" or should I say "dismantling" every excuse you can come up with mr. modalist. 
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Oh I don't know, maybe at Hebrews 1:3, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his PERSON, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" Does this look like "heresy" to you ps? And btw, how many persons are identified in this verse? Also keep in mind that I can go on forever "pounding" or should I say "dismantling" every excuse you can come up with mr. modalist.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Trintarians reduce the Creator God to a person by asking "how many persons are identified in the above passage." The question is an insult to Almighty God who returned to heavens glory from where he had come. The name of the One Omnipresent God, only while on earth, was Jesus.
The non-Christian world takes every opportunity to reduce Jesus to a mere mortal and the Trinitarian heresy that speaks of the Christian God as three persons, aids them in their efforts, and makes Christians who themselves admit to worshipping three persons, a laughing stock. Thank you bluto and friends. No wonder I left CARM.
It is 1:36 am here and I am going back to bed.
It is 5:55 am and I woke up with this on my mind, I must have been thinking about it in my sleep:-
When Jesus, the pre-incarnate Creator and Word taught the Lords Prayer that begins with the words "Our Father who art in heaven" and shortly after he ascended into heaven, who do you think we are praying to when we say "Our Father?" Do you think maybe "Our Father" is the pre-incarnate Jesus, the Word, the Creator of heaven and earth? The Bible tells us GOD'S name on earth was Jesus.
I believe in One undivided God.
When Jesus, the pre-incarnate Creator and Word taught the Lords Prayer that begins with the words "Our Father who art in heaven" and shortly after he ascended into heaven, who do you think we are praying to when we say "Our Father?" Do you think maybe "Our Father" is the pre-incarnate Jesus, the Word, the Creator of heaven and earth? The Bible tells us GOD'S name on earth was Jesus.
I believe in One undivided God.
I actually haven't ever heard anyone say it that way before...it's pretty sweet
For me it is about Complete agreement. Which is unity. Of one accord. Harmony.
Roles "may" differ though. Much like our roles differ in the body. Are we not all of one body?
As far as personhood is concerned, that is impossible to explain, unless you mean personality.
We don't even know the fullness of our own personhood or what we really even are or will be...
it seems to make sense to at least bear that in mind and I'm pretty confident the Lord will work out
what is needed for your own personal understanding.
For me it is about Complete agreement. Which is unity. Of one accord. Harmony.
Roles "may" differ though. Much like our roles differ in the body. Are we not all of one body?
As far as personhood is concerned, that is impossible to explain, unless you mean personality.
We don't even know the fullness of our own personhood or what we really even are or will be...
it seems to make sense to at least bear that in mind and I'm pretty confident the Lord will work out
what is needed for your own personal understanding.
Let me explain something to you ps. I purposefully quoted the NKJB even though I exclusively use the NASB because I wanted to see how you would respond to the word person. You then rightly gave Strongs's #5282 and the actual word in the Greek is "hypostasis." The following is what it means.
"The KJV translates Strong's G5287 in the following manner: confidence (2x), confident (1x), person (1x), substance (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
One of the other terms translated as "p[erson" here is "prosopon" whihc is also translated as "face" most often, as "person" and also as presence and "countenance throughout the New Testament. In every case it means, (now pay attention ps) by which the i8dentity is expressed or manifest. EXACTLY what is meant in trinitarian theology when we say that there are three persons WHO SHARE THE SAME NATURE. In other words, the three persons of the trinity are "ONE" in nature.
Humans are all one in nature because are nature is human. We are all distinct persons and I'm not you and your not the person of me. It's exactly the same with God. This is why in one of my other post I specifically ask at John 10:30, in what respect are the Son and the Father are one?
John 10:30, "I and my Father we are one." When Jesus said this the Jews at vs31, "The Jews took up stones "AGAIN" to stone Him." Why ps? Read the following verses (especially vs33 where they accuse Jesus of blasphemy, why?) which gives you the answer.
They is no Biblical way you can escape the fact that God not only is identified as three persons but manifested Himself as three persons. And btw, trinitarians do not divide God up in 3rd's or any other way. Jesus Christ has two natures, one human on His mother's side and deity of His Father's side.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"The KJV translates Strong's G5287 in the following manner: confidence (2x), confident (1x), person (1x), substance (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- a setting or placing under
- thing put under, substructure, foundation
- that which has foundation, is firm
- that which has actual existence
- a substance, real being
- the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
- the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
- confidence, firm trust, assurance"
- that which has actual existence
One of the other terms translated as "p[erson" here is "prosopon" whihc is also translated as "face" most often, as "person" and also as presence and "countenance throughout the New Testament. In every case it means, (now pay attention ps) by which the i8dentity is expressed or manifest. EXACTLY what is meant in trinitarian theology when we say that there are three persons WHO SHARE THE SAME NATURE. In other words, the three persons of the trinity are "ONE" in nature.
Humans are all one in nature because are nature is human. We are all distinct persons and I'm not you and your not the person of me. It's exactly the same with God. This is why in one of my other post I specifically ask at John 10:30, in what respect are the Son and the Father are one?
John 10:30, "I and my Father we are one." When Jesus said this the Jews at vs31, "The Jews took up stones "AGAIN" to stone Him." Why ps? Read the following verses (especially vs33 where they accuse Jesus of blasphemy, why?) which gives you the answer.
They is no Biblical way you can escape the fact that God not only is identified as three persons but manifested Himself as three persons. And btw, trinitarians do not divide God up in 3rd's or any other way. Jesus Christ has two natures, one human on His mother's side and deity of His Father's side.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
common-sense = One God, One Faith, One Baptism!!!
God is Spirit, He never says that we will be like Jesus or The Holy Spirit,
because, there is only ONE SPIRIT = The God-Head - All are ONE...
1JOHN 3:2.
Beloved, now are we The Sons of God, and it dos not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when (He shall appear, we shall be like Him'; for we shall see Him' as He' is).
God is Spirit, He never says that we will be like Jesus or The Holy Spirit,
because, there is only ONE SPIRIT = The God-Head - All are ONE...
1JOHN 3:2.
Beloved, now are we The Sons of God, and it dos not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when (He shall appear, we shall be like Him'; for we shall see Him' as He' is).
Let me explain something to you ps. I purposefully quoted the NKJB even though I exclusively use the NASB because I wanted to see how you would respond to the word person. You then rightly gave Strongs's #5282 and the actual word in the Greek is "hypostasis." The following is what it means.
"The KJV translates Strong's G5287 in the following manner: confidence (2x), confident (1x), person (1x), substance (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
One of the other terms translated as "p[erson" here is "prosopon" whihc is also translated as "face" most often, as "person" and also as presence and "countenance throughout the New Testament. In every case it means, (now pay attention ps) by which the i8dentity is expressed or manifest. EXACTLY what is meant in trinitarian theology when we say that there are three persons WHO SHARE THE SAME NATURE. In other words, the three persons of the trinity are "ONE" in nature.
Humans are all one in nature because are nature is human. We are all distinct persons and I'm not you and your not the person of me. It's exactly the same with God. This is why in one of my other post I specifically ask at John 10:30, in what respect are the Son and the Father are one?
John 10:30, "I and my Father we are one." When Jesus said this the Jews at vs31, "The Jews took up stones "AGAIN" to stone Him." Why ps? Read the following verses (especially vs33 where they accuse Jesus of blasphemy, why?) which gives you the answer.
They is no Biblical way you can escape the fact that God not only is identified as three persons but manifested Himself as three persons. And btw, trinitarians do not divide God up in 3rd's or any other way. Jesus Christ has two natures, one human on His mother's side and deity of His Father's side.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"The KJV translates Strong's G5287 in the following manner: confidence (2x), confident (1x), person (1x), substance (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- a setting or placing under
- thing put under, substructure, foundation
- that which has foundation, is firm
- that which has actual existence
- a substance, real being
- the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
- the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
- confidence, firm trust, assurance"
- that which has actual existence
One of the other terms translated as "p[erson" here is "prosopon" whihc is also translated as "face" most often, as "person" and also as presence and "countenance throughout the New Testament. In every case it means, (now pay attention ps) by which the i8dentity is expressed or manifest. EXACTLY what is meant in trinitarian theology when we say that there are three persons WHO SHARE THE SAME NATURE. In other words, the three persons of the trinity are "ONE" in nature.
Humans are all one in nature because are nature is human. We are all distinct persons and I'm not you and your not the person of me. It's exactly the same with God. This is why in one of my other post I specifically ask at John 10:30, in what respect are the Son and the Father are one?
John 10:30, "I and my Father we are one." When Jesus said this the Jews at vs31, "The Jews took up stones "AGAIN" to stone Him." Why ps? Read the following verses (especially vs33 where they accuse Jesus of blasphemy, why?) which gives you the answer.
They is no Biblical way you can escape the fact that God not only is identified as three persons but manifested Himself as three persons. And btw, trinitarians do not divide God up in 3rd's or any other way. Jesus Christ has two natures, one human on His mother's side and deity of His Father's side.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You remember the old hymn, God IN three persons? It does not say God IS three persons as Trinitarians would have us believe, this only makes Trinitarians look silly and brings dishonour upon Christianity by the mischievous misrepresentation of what the Bible actually says. I will tell you why.
The Bible tells us there is One God, Mar:12:32; Rom:3:30; 1Cor:8:6; Eph:4:6; 1Ti:2:5; Jas:2:19 who is manifest in three persons, not IS three persons. We also know that God is spirit and therefor invisible so cannot be seen. The Bible tells us in 2Cor 4:4 that Jesus is the image of God, John 1:18 tells us no man has seen God at any time, in John 14:10 Jesus tells us the Father dwells in him, Col 1:15 tells us Jesus is the image of the invisible God but not God himself. Hebrews 1:3 reiterates this by telling us Jesus has the effulgence, brightness, radiance, reflection, splendour of God, depending on which translation we read.
So, what does all this mean? It means God is manifest in Jesus. It means God dwelt in the man Christ Jesus; it means those who were present with Jesus were in the presence of Almighty God, which must have been a marvellous experience and if they had special X-ray eyes, they would have seen God himself, IN Christ Jesus.
The Messiah had to be a man and not God, so that he could take upon himself the sins of mankind which God in his sinless nature cannot do, so that God could raise Jesus to newness of life, our sins blotted out.
So, in summery, God was made manifest in Christ Jesus and the power of God was seen in and through Him, but I reiterate God is ONE not three, and although people saw Jesus NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN GOD.
All I am asking is for people to stop preaching that God is three persons, and instead to say that the One God was manifest IN three persons. Is that fair, and more importantly is that correct?
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First of all would you please quit misrepresenting what I said. I "DID NOT say God "IS" three persons. I clearly have said all along that God is (1) identified in the Bible as three persons and (2) God chose to "MANIFEST" Himself as three persons.
This is my statement which you quoted, "God not only is identified as three persons but manifested Himself as three persons." (Bluto). I used the word "manifested" NOT" the word "is." What you doing is implying if not outright saying that trinitarians are promoting "polytheism" or saying we believe in three beings of God which is also polytheism, this is a iie.
You also made this anti Biblical statement, "The Messiah had to be a man and not God, so that he could take upon himself the sins of mankind which God in his sinless nature cannot do, so that God could raise Jesus to newness of life, our sins blotted out."
The Bible clearly teaches that the Messiah who is Jesus Christ is God. Isaiah 9:6 proves it and so does other verses in the Bible. If the Messiah is not God then why did the Jews not only wanted to kill/stone Jesus but on numerous occasions accused Him of blasphemy? What was the blasphemy Jesus committed ps?
Then you have Acts 20:27-31, "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God; vs28, Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shephered the church of God WHICH HE/GOD PURCHASED WITH IS OWN BLOOD," vs29, I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you not sparing the flock, vs30, and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, (like you ps, saying Jesus is God the Father) to draw away the disciples after them. vs31, Therefore be on the alert; remembering that night and day for a peirod of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears."
So you have here Jesus Christ purchasing the church with His own blood and then Paul is warning us that me will not only undermine the chruch from "WITHIN" but also from outside of the church by perversing what was taught.
When Jesus said at John 14:9, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" did Jesus means He is the person of the Father ps? Absolutely not, read the rest of the context and when you get to vs16 you will see three persons identified in that one verse. "And I/Jesus Christ will ask the Father/
god the Father; and He/the Father will give ANOTHER Helper/the Holy Spirit, that He may be with you forever;" Checkmate!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
This is my statement which you quoted, "God not only is identified as three persons but manifested Himself as three persons." (Bluto). I used the word "manifested" NOT" the word "is." What you doing is implying if not outright saying that trinitarians are promoting "polytheism" or saying we believe in three beings of God which is also polytheism, this is a iie.
You also made this anti Biblical statement, "The Messiah had to be a man and not God, so that he could take upon himself the sins of mankind which God in his sinless nature cannot do, so that God could raise Jesus to newness of life, our sins blotted out."
The Bible clearly teaches that the Messiah who is Jesus Christ is God. Isaiah 9:6 proves it and so does other verses in the Bible. If the Messiah is not God then why did the Jews not only wanted to kill/stone Jesus but on numerous occasions accused Him of blasphemy? What was the blasphemy Jesus committed ps?
Then you have Acts 20:27-31, "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God; vs28, Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shephered the church of God WHICH HE/GOD PURCHASED WITH IS OWN BLOOD," vs29, I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you not sparing the flock, vs30, and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, (like you ps, saying Jesus is God the Father) to draw away the disciples after them. vs31, Therefore be on the alert; remembering that night and day for a peirod of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears."
So you have here Jesus Christ purchasing the church with His own blood and then Paul is warning us that me will not only undermine the chruch from "WITHIN" but also from outside of the church by perversing what was taught.
When Jesus said at John 14:9, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" did Jesus means He is the person of the Father ps? Absolutely not, read the rest of the context and when you get to vs16 you will see three persons identified in that one verse. "And I/Jesus Christ will ask the Father/
god the Father; and He/the Father will give ANOTHER Helper/the Holy Spirit, that He may be with you forever;" Checkmate!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
If Trinitarians insist on the repeated use of the word three in connection with God, they need to make it very clear, they are not talking about three gods. Read your post as a non-Christian would and you might see what I mean.
Explanation from Gleason Archer:
God as God could not forgive us for our sins unless our sins were fully paid for; otherwise He would have been a condoner and protector of the violation of His own holy law. It was only as a man that God in Christ could furnish satisfaction sufficient to atone for the sins of mankind; for only a man, a true human being, could properly represent the human race.
But at the same time our Redeemer had to be God, for only God could furnish a sacrifice of infinite value, to compensate for the penalty of eternal hell that our sin demands, according to the righteous claims of divine justice. Only God could have devised a way of salvation that made it possible for Him to remain Just and at the same time become the Justifier of the ungodly and instead of sending them to the everlasting perdition they deserved it was the perfect Man in whom dwelt infinite God that furnished an effectual sacrifice for all believers of every age.
I will leave it there as I feel this issue will never be resolved. Personally I believe God is Spirit and He is present with us right now, I also believe the Holy Spirit was present in the body of the perfect man, (God in Christ) and it was Jesus the man who died in our room and stead. If you insist Mary's Son was God, as the diagram states, then we have a problem because God cannot die. Yours in His name.
Explanation from Gleason Archer:
God as God could not forgive us for our sins unless our sins were fully paid for; otherwise He would have been a condoner and protector of the violation of His own holy law. It was only as a man that God in Christ could furnish satisfaction sufficient to atone for the sins of mankind; for only a man, a true human being, could properly represent the human race.
But at the same time our Redeemer had to be God, for only God could furnish a sacrifice of infinite value, to compensate for the penalty of eternal hell that our sin demands, according to the righteous claims of divine justice. Only God could have devised a way of salvation that made it possible for Him to remain Just and at the same time become the Justifier of the ungodly and instead of sending them to the everlasting perdition they deserved it was the perfect Man in whom dwelt infinite God that furnished an effectual sacrifice for all believers of every age.
I will leave it there as I feel this issue will never be resolved. Personally I believe God is Spirit and He is present with us right now, I also believe the Holy Spirit was present in the body of the perfect man, (God in Christ) and it was Jesus the man who died in our room and stead. If you insist Mary's Son was God, as the diagram states, then we have a problem because God cannot die. Yours in His name.
This analogy of the human being is not appropriate to the Triune God.
God is one Being yet three Persons.
Imagine three persons occupying the same body (being or essence). This would be the equivalent in the material realm, but of course God is not material. He is spirit. Spirit is his essence or being.
A human's essence is his physical body. If three distinct persons occupied the same physical body, then this would be analogous to the Triune God.
God is a multi-personal being, in other words.
Anti-Trinitarians will somehow claim that God must be like them, and that there can only be one person per essence (body). However, they are taking their presuppositions, which are true in the material realm, and applying them to God, who is not subject to their limitations.
Two good books on this topic are Delighting in the Trinity, by Michael Reeves, and Delighting in the Trinity, by Tim Chester.
They have the same title, but are different books.
At one point I was fooled by anti-Trinitarian nonsense. Understanding the Trinity is a key component to understanding much of Scripture. A person might be able to understand a portion of Scripture correctly without understanding the Trinity, but those who don't understand it are actually limiting themselves.
For instance, the Triune God is relational by nature because he is community in one being. The anti-Trinitarian will struggle with this concept. Additionally, this reasoning removes the canard that God created man to keep him company. In reality God is love within his very being, and is perfectly content in Himself, without any other beings. He is complete and content. However, in the overflow of his love and his desire to share it with others, he has created others. Primarily, though, he creates to glorify himself, but those beings he creates are created to enjoy Him forever.
God is one Being yet three Persons.
Imagine three persons occupying the same body (being or essence). This would be the equivalent in the material realm, but of course God is not material. He is spirit. Spirit is his essence or being.
A human's essence is his physical body. If three distinct persons occupied the same physical body, then this would be analogous to the Triune God.
God is a multi-personal being, in other words.
Anti-Trinitarians will somehow claim that God must be like them, and that there can only be one person per essence (body). However, they are taking their presuppositions, which are true in the material realm, and applying them to God, who is not subject to their limitations.
Two good books on this topic are Delighting in the Trinity, by Michael Reeves, and Delighting in the Trinity, by Tim Chester.
They have the same title, but are different books.
At one point I was fooled by anti-Trinitarian nonsense. Understanding the Trinity is a key component to understanding much of Scripture. A person might be able to understand a portion of Scripture correctly without understanding the Trinity, but those who don't understand it are actually limiting themselves.
For instance, the Triune God is relational by nature because he is community in one being. The anti-Trinitarian will struggle with this concept. Additionally, this reasoning removes the canard that God created man to keep him company. In reality God is love within his very being, and is perfectly content in Himself, without any other beings. He is complete and content. However, in the overflow of his love and his desire to share it with others, he has created others. Primarily, though, he creates to glorify himself, but those beings he creates are created to enjoy Him forever.
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Yahweh is appropriate in Hebrew. He is the Triune God. However, this is rendered LORD in the OT.
Elohim is the usual word for God in the OT. This name could be used to refer to the Triune God too.
Yahweh (YHVH) says that he is the only God, so therefore this is a reference to the Triune God.
The NT uses "theos" sometimes to describe the Father alone, and sometimes to describe the Triune God.
Elohim is the usual word for God in the OT. This name could be used to refer to the Triune God too.
Yahweh (YHVH) says that he is the only God, so therefore this is a reference to the Triune God.
The NT uses "theos" sometimes to describe the Father alone, and sometimes to describe the Triune God.
I would also warn folks that questioning the Trinity is often the first line of attack by cultic individuals. First it's the Trinity, then it's other doctrines such as the deity of Christ, or penal substitutionary atonement, or the bodily resurrection.
The attempt is often to weave this story that they are the possessors of the true faith, and that "Trinitarians" are a false form of Christianity. This same tactic plays out over and over again across church history.
Been there, done that, bought the T shirt. I wouldn't get caught up in those conspiracy theories if I were you,
I recommended two solid books on the Trinity, one by Tim Chester. I recommend reading it, if it's an issue for you.
The attempt is often to weave this story that they are the possessors of the true faith, and that "Trinitarians" are a false form of Christianity. This same tactic plays out over and over again across church history.
Been there, done that, bought the T shirt. I wouldn't get caught up in those conspiracy theories if I were you,
I recommended two solid books on the Trinity, one by Tim Chester. I recommend reading it, if it's an issue for you.
I fully believe in the one triune God..
Father is God, Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is God.. co-equal, co-eternal.
I just find it hard to get my head around the term 'persons'.. because like you say.. I am thinking of the material realm. So persons, becomes 'seperate beings'..
So I think it is helpful to think that it is the spiritual realm and so God can be 3 'persons' without them being actually seperate, distinct beings.
I think I just find the terminology hard to comprehend.
Father is God, Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is God.. co-equal, co-eternal.
I just find it hard to get my head around the term 'persons'.. because like you say.. I am thinking of the material realm. So persons, becomes 'seperate beings'..
So I think it is helpful to think that it is the spiritual realm and so God can be 3 'persons' without them being actually seperate, distinct beings.
I think I just find the terminology hard to comprehend.
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It is difficult at best to grasp the concept of God given in scripture....He and his WAYS are past finding out.....it is like one of us looking down at an ant and the ant trying to describe man with it's very limited view and knowledge of man......The bible also states that God IS light, God IS Spirit, God IS love.....all three "be verbs" --> IS, show a state of being......
so we have ONE GOD, which is LOVE, SPIRIT AND LIGHT, which is manifested three different ways and has always been with no beginning or end, is not subject unto time, but utilizes timing while being the lofty one that dwells in eternity.........explain that!
so we have ONE GOD, which is LOVE, SPIRIT AND LIGHT, which is manifested three different ways and has always been with no beginning or end, is not subject unto time, but utilizes timing while being the lofty one that dwells in eternity.........explain that!
Maybe I can help you (and others) on this issue of "separate" and "distinct" persons. When you say the three persons of the Trinity are "separate" your implying three gods. I've also heard people say three separate beings which again, implies polytheism.
The three persons of the Trinity are "distinct" persons. Let me explain what I mean. Picture a tricycle. The wheels on this tricycle are distinct from one another, but are still TIED in to one another. The wheels are not "separate from one another or the bike would not be able to move.
So, separate means independent and not joined together because they are separate parts. Distinct means the parts are united (or in this case the three persons of the trinity are united) and connected to each other by having the same nature. Does this make sense?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The three persons of the Trinity are "distinct" persons. Let me explain what I mean. Picture a tricycle. The wheels on this tricycle are distinct from one another, but are still TIED in to one another. The wheels are not "separate from one another or the bike would not be able to move.
So, separate means independent and not joined together because they are separate parts. Distinct means the parts are united (or in this case the three persons of the trinity are united) and connected to each other by having the same nature. Does this make sense?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto