The Absence of Free Will

I struggle with this, and ask the Lord to help me to understand. I so do not want to be the one who constantly seeks and never finds the truth, but bear with me as i express my delimma

Ok so we see from the old testament and new testament that God is a God of patterns, right? We see that He chose individuals over and over and even a nation of ppl, correct? We even see that in the new testament, He chose Mary, Paul and the 12 disciples. He even chose the man of perdition to fulfill the scripture.

So taking the side of no free will is not a huge leap, especially when you consider the verses of foreknowledge, predestination and election. < I would say they fall into Gods perspective (as my finite mind interprets the scriptures).

So that all has to harmonize with the choice which we are clearly given from the beginning, the choice to take that perverbial bite into crime... the tree of knowledge and evil. The choice to pick who we will serve.... on and on.

Choice given makes more sense, otherwise, what's the point.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32.

So I think it is both, He foreknew, and predestined and yet He calls all people to Himself...

How that is possible, I am still not sure. I mean does my even considering a middle ground break the law of non contradiction?

One of the things that I was not clear on your explanation was on Romans 10:1-2-3, You had stated that Paul was upset with the fact that the NATION of Israel would not come unto a knowledge of the Gospel in order to be saved eternally. I am of the understanding that Israel in this verse has reference to Jacob, as Israel, and not the nation of Israel. My understanding is that they were already eternally saved, by evidence of having a zeal of God. I equate them as being in the same position as most on this forum who are of the elect, but are believing in a false doctrine of eternal salvation, by their good works. There is a deliverance (salvation) when an elect child of God comes unto a knowledge of the truth of the Gospel. This deliverance is not eternal deliverance, because they already have that security, but it is a deliverance that they receive at the moment they receive and understand the knowledge. Just as you, yourself, through your study of the scriptures came to a knowledge of the truth of the Gospel. Do you understand what I am trying to convey to you? I believe the elect children of God are missing out on a full understanding of the Gospel by not taking in consideration that a lot of scriptures about ISRAEL has reference to Jacob's name being changed to ISRAEL. My understanding of the two gates mentioned in Matthew are along this line of thinking in that the people that go into both gates are the elect, the wide gate=false doctrines due to a lack of knowledge and the straight gate being those who have been revealed the true knowledge of the Gospel.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with your belief system.

I believe in the doctrines of grace, which include eternal security. And, I don't think someone needs to understand the doctrines of grace to be saved.

I think people can be confused on some doctrinal issues, but still be saved. However, I don't think a real believer will deny the deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, original sin, inspiration and infallibility of Scripture, original sin, the Triune God if those teachings have been presented to them.

I believe in the doctrines of grace the same as you, but I don't think that I put as strict limitations as you do. I believe that the scriptures teach that if a person truly believes in and worships a spiritual God, then they are of the elect that have been regenerated. I am not saying that do not, but you may not be understanding just how deeply depraved an elect and regenerated child of God can be by his fleshly nature. You say "I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with your belief system". Can you explain why?

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with your belief system.

I believe in the doctrines of grace, which include eternal security. And, I don't think someone needs to understand the doctrines of grace to be saved.

I think people can be confused on some doctrinal issues, but still be saved. However, I don't think a real believer will deny the deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, original sin, inspiration and infallibility of Scripture, original sin, the Triune God if those teachings have been presented to them.

I am in agreement with everything that you have just stated. I can not understand, if you believe all of the scriptures referencing salvation means eternal salvation, how do you refute eternal salvation by works?

Through rightly dividing the word of truth. Not all Scripture is written to us, but all is written for us. Rightly divide the proper audience and dispensation.

I am in agreement with everything that you have just stated. I can not understand, if you believe all of the scriptures referencing salvation means eternal salvation, how do you refute eternal salvation by works?

All scripture is written to us, but some is written about others, to us.

Free will don't exist. After all, every is slave of the sin (Romans 3.9) and nobody that is slave is free.

I am in agreement with everything that you have just stated. I can not understand, if you believe all of the scriptures referencing salvation means eternal salvation, how do you refute eternal salvation by works?

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

If you are talking about salvation by works, my position is that the Father elects, the Son atones for the sins of the elect, and the Holy Spirit applies the benefits of salvation, which include sanctification, perseverance, and glorification. This is accomplished through a spiritual union with Christ. The entire package of salvation is a gift to the believer. This does not mean, though, that the believer, at the human level, isn't mindful to produce the fruit of good works. This is plain from Philippians 2:12-13.

Works are a fruit of salvation, and if there is no fruit, one should consider whether they are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5).

I am not sure what you mean by "in the faith". There is no doubt that these people in the church at Corinth have been born of the Spirit in the new birth and do possess the faith of the Spirit, although their faith may be weak, as all of us are at times, but they are still of the elect.

To us and for us...know the difference.

One in the same. If it was written to us, it was written for us.

I am not sure what you mean by "in the faith". There is no doubt that these people in the church at Corinth have been born of the Spirit in the new birth and do possess the faith of the Spirit, although their faith may be weak, as all of us are at times, but they are still of the elect.

What does a world look like in the absence of free will. I understand this will knock on the Calvinist door but it also knocks on the atheists door also. And the atheist is who I usually spend time debating as to why I am challenging that worldview and that view has unknowingly persuaded other Christians. The world of a true materialist is a world absent of free will.

I struggle with this, and ask the Lord to help me to understand. I so do not want to be the one who constantly seeks and never finds the truth, but bear with me as i express my delimma

Ok so we see from the old testament and new testament that God is a God of patterns, right? We see that He chose individuals over and over and even a nation of ppl, correct? We even see that in the new testament, He chose Mary, Paul and the 12 disciples. He even chose the man of perdition to fulfill the scripture.

So taking the side of no free will is not a huge leap, especially when you consider the verses of foreknowledge, predestination and election. < I would say they fall into Gods perspective (as my finite mind interprets the scriptures).

So that all has to harmonize with the choice which we are clearly given from the beginning, the choice to take that perverbial bite into crime... the tree of knowledge and evil. The choice to pick who we will serve.... on and on.

Choice given makes more sense, otherwise, what's the point.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32.

So I think it is both, He foreknew, and predestined and yet He calls all people to Himself...

How that is possible, I am still not sure. I mean does my even considering a middle ground break the law of non contradiction?

This article gives some idea on the problems with "free will" theology.

http://spiritoferror.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Gomes-God-in-Mans-Image-CRJ.pdf

Here's a series of three articles that show how YWAM has promoted this faulty theology in the past (and currently, in the Philippines at least):

http://www.spiritoferror.org/2019/0...am-part-1-a-sketchy-theological-heritage/8273
http://www.spiritoferror.org/2019/0...ering-with-the-new-apostolic-reformation/8331
http://www.spiritoferror.org/2020/0...now-about-ywam-part-3-hearing-gods-voice/8886

It leads, quite often, to a denial of original sin, imputed righteousness, and justification by faith alone. It leads to pridefulness and boasting.

Note: when I use the phrase "free will", I mean libertarian free will...the idea that God does not affect or change the will or nature of the person in order to accomplish his purposes.

By the way, my most beloved pastor was a free-willer (I left his church over that issue eventually).

The last time I talked to him at lunch, he told me how much freedom he felt knowing that God is basically letting him make his own path in the world. He was the master of his own fate, according to these toilet bowl theologians. I remember him bringing up open theist gurus like Clark Pinnock and Greg Boyd at one time or another..I'm not sure if it was this lunch appointment or not, but I knew the context of his remarks and the toilet bowl theology he was drinking from.

I don't know how long it was after that, but he fell down the stairs at his home and broke his neck. He was going to the restroom and returned. He mistook the basement door for his bedroom, and stepped into the darkness. He lingered for a while after the accident, but could not move. His wife wouldn't let anyone see him due to the risk of pneumonia, but I asked her to tell him that God is in control. I know he was heavily sedated and eventually intubated, but I hope he had enough time to reconsider his position, and to find his rest in the LORD.

I know that God is in control. He uses events and choices to guide his children in being conformed to the image of Christ. Scripture as a whole witnesses to it, if one has the eyes to see it.

However, I wonder if he got past the false teachings of Clark Pinnock and the rest of the "open theist" trash that infiltrates the Church today...I hope so. I think it would be very dark for him if he didn't realize that God was sovereignly operating within his circumstances, and that they had purpose.

My opinion of the writings of Pinnock and other open theists is that they should be used for outhouse toilet paper, if it isn't clear. These false teachings rob believers of the confidence they should have in God's sovereignty and provision.