Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%

  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%

  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%
  • Total voters
    53
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#921
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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#921
Roughsoul1991 said:
How does these verses negate free will? Without your commentary the verses themselves do not extinguish free will.

God does come first. You must of ignored my post speaking on how the Spirit draws ALL mankind and it is our responsibility to respond.
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How does the Spirit draw. Through mystical means or via the revealed word?
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#922
Sep 17, 2016
8,848
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#922
Predestined to hold different views. This is God's will and not our own because God is the God of contradiction. And we the chosen ones are unwillingly in a centuries old theological debate who are both unwillingly doing the will of God.
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#923
Mar 28, 2019
2,055
1,524
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#923
i looked at the context in which the choice meats thing was said by leighton flowers surprise james whitelie clipped that really well. same with the other accusation. if you listen to leighton flowers order of salvation sermon you will get it.

but calvinists never will.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#926
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
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#926
Roughsoul1991 said:
Fallen but not robots or puppets. Was Adam chosen? What caused him to sin?

Yes we are free in our choice between good and evil. How we respond the God's moral law and how we respond to God. Fallen but not totally depraved. Total depravity is a false doctrine.

Your ramblings are shortsighted with assumptions that you understand my beliefs.

So Jesus said and the truth shall set you free. Free from what? Condemnation of sin. Still doesn't negate the choice of belief.
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The old robot and/or puppet schtick. The lost aren’t robots or puppets my friend. They are dead in transgressions and sins, and need divine quickening before they can positively respond to the gospel.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. We were dead inwardly and needed a spiritual resuscitation before we could positively respond to the gospel.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#927
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
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#927
Roughsoul1991 said:
Besides being wrong. You didn't answer the question. I'll make it simpler.

Was the Devil acting in free will in the rebellion?
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The Bible doesn’t say one way or the other, as it doesn’t speak about what happened before “In the beginning”. We have a glimpse in Revelation 12, I think a valid argument that the prince of Tyre in in Ezekiel 28 could be referencing a pre-fallen Satan(but I’m not thoroughly convinced one way or the other). But no one acts independently of their nature. Adam and Eve were born in a state of innocence, but not infallible. Even angels were created that way. I do believe there are elect angels and non-elect angels, just as there are humans.
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#928
Sep 17, 2016
8,848
4,504
113
#928
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
How does the Spirit draw. Through mystical means or via the revealed word?
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Mystical? I prefer supernatural or natural revelation.

Natural revelation is explained best in

Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Moral law-

Romans 2:14-15 New International Version (NIV)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Supernatural-

Matthew 8:3 New International Version (NIV)
3 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cleansed of his leprosy.

John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

And finally the God Inspired written Word as the Bible. In which is very supernatural to exist in perfect harmony, survive 1000s of years of war and decay, fulfilled prophecies and still to this day just as life changing.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#929
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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#929
Roughsoul1991 said:
Indifferent because we are not robots or puppets. Genuine love only exists in free will.
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We are not robots or puppets my friend. But in our lost state, we were God-hating, rebellious sinners.

Romans 8:5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who are according to the flesh are lost folk. They, as Paul described, have their minds centered upon the flesh, their mind centered on the flesh is death, are hostile with God, and it does not subject itself to the Law if God, and is unable to do so, even if they tried, and these in the flesh can not please God. Why not? Without faith, it’s impossible to please God[Hebrews 11:6]

Those who are according to the Spirit, are the saved folk. They have their minds upon the Spirit, they have life and peace, they have their minds upon the Law of God, and can please Him, seeing they have faith, which does please God.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#930
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#930
Roughsoul1991 said:
Mystical? I prefer supernatural or natural revelation.

Natural revelation is explained best in

Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Moral law-

Romans 2:14-15 New International Version (NIV)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Supernatural-

Matthew 8:3 New International Version (NIV)
3 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cleansed of his leprosy.

John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

And finally the God Inspired written Word as the Bible. In which is very supernatural to exist in perfect harmony, survive 1000s of years of war and decay, fulfilled prophecies and still to this day just as life changing.
Click to expand...
But natural revelation saves nary a soul my friend. It shows them God as Creator, but not God as Savior. NR does not tell them about the Christ who came and lived a perfect, sinless life, died upon a cross, and rose from the dead 3 days later. That is only revealed via the word of God, not NR.
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#931
Sep 17, 2016
8,848
4,504
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#931
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
The Bible doesn’t say one way or the other, as it doesn’t speak about what happened before “In the beginning”. We have a glimpse in Revelation 12, I think a valid argument that the prince of Tyre in in Ezekiel 28 could be referencing a pre-fallen Satan(but I’m not thoroughly convinced one way or the other). But no one acts independently of their nature. Adam and Eve were born in a state of innocence, but not infallible. Even angels were created that way. I do believe there are elect angels and non-elect angels, just as there are humans.
Click to expand...
So following your conclusion on non elect angels. I would assume you would believe that the Devil would be a non elect. And thus making God the author of moral evil.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#933
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#933
Roughsoul1991 said:
Mystical? I prefer supernatural or natural revelation.

Natural revelation is explained best in

Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Moral law-

Romans 2:14-15 New International Version (NIV)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Supernatural-

Matthew 8:3 New International Version (NIV)
3 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cleansed of his leprosy.

John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

And finally the God Inspired written Word as the Bible. In which is very supernatural to exist in perfect harmony, survive 1000s of years of war and decay, fulfilled prophecies and still to this day just as life changing.
Click to expand...
What I meant by mystical is that no one can be saved w/o ever hearing or reading the word of God. God uses His word to save ppl. So if someone dies w/o ever hearing it, they will stand before Him as a condemned sinner.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#934
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
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#934
Roughsoul1991 said:
So following your conclusion on non elect angels. I would assume you would believe that the Devil would be a non elect. And thus making God the author of moral evil.
Click to expand...
Don’t post foolish stuff like this at me my friend. God is not the author of any evil. God created everyone perfect, but not infallible. The only infallible One is God. In fact, He is impeccable.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#935
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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113
#935
Roughsoul1991 said:
So following your conclusion on non elect angels. I would assume you would believe that the Devil would be a non elect. And thus making God the author of moral evil.
Click to expand...
John Calvin quote, “The fall of Adam and Eve and all it’s consequences was the admirable council of God at work.”

This is the man they follow. A man who believed that God is the author of sin.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#936
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#936
Roughsoul1991 said:
So following your conclusion on non elect angels. I would assume you would believe that the Devil would be a non elect. And thus making God the author of moral evil.
Click to expand...
It amazes me that when ppl’s theology breaks down, they automatically impugn God’s holiness. :( :cry:
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#937
Sep 17, 2016
8,848
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#937
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
But natural revelation saves nary a soul my friend. It shows them God as Creator, but not God as Savior. NR does not tell them about the Christ who came and lived a perfect, sinless life, died upon a cross, and rose from the dead 3 days later. That is only revealed via the word of God, not NR.
Click to expand...
If God is all just and loving then how do you answer for those who never heard the Gospel or never heard of Christ?

They are a law unto themselves that God will judge. They had every natural revelation of God and even God working within. We are only responsible to what we know. As to why babies or the mentally handicapped go to Heaven.

How many abortions are committed each year? 10,000? 100,000?

Does 5000 or 50,000 of those babies go to Hell?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#938
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#938
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
What I meant by mystical is that no one can be saved w/o ever hearing or reading the word of God. God uses His word to save ppl. So if someone dies w/o ever hearing it, they will stand before Him as a condemned sinner.
Click to expand...
Yes, why the command to go out and preach the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth? The Church has failed miserably in this.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#940
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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113
#940
Roughsoul1991 said:
If God is all just and loving then how do you answer for those who never heard the Gospel or never heard of Christ?

They are a law unto themselves that God will judge. They had every natural revelation of God and even God working within. We are only responsible to what we know. As to why babies or the mentally handicapped go to Heaven.

How many abortions are committed each year? 10,000? 100,000?

Does 5000 or 50,000 of those babies go to Hell?
Click to expand...
Just is not Him being fair. Just is Him giving us what we deserve. Trust me, you or I neither one want His fairness. We’d both end up in the Lake of Fire.

Can anyone be saved without hearing the gospel, never knowing a thing about the Christ?
 
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