Is unconditional election biblical?
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and they say to people like me you cant defend that argument against a whatever i say who cares. i dont plan on wasting my time doing moderated debates with heretics and false religions no thanks. i rather talk with that joe sixpack guy about how Jesus died for His sins, something a consistent calvinist cant say to anyone
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red herring is a possibility: The term red herring is sometimes used loosely to refer to any kind of diversionary tactic, such as presenting relatively unimportant arguments that will use up the other debaters' speaking time and distract them from more important issues. This kind of a red herring is a wonderful strategic maneuver with which every debater should be familiar.
frankly, just think it is childish and waste of time
straw man: This is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made. Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made, in which case the straw man argument is a veiled version of argumentum ad logicam.
this happens all the time here in the BDF
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U
I am not sure I am reading this correctly, but I have never met a person who belonged to the Reformed church and/or ascribed to the doctrines of Tulip who believed that only they were the elect, I do think they look at the Gospel understanding first, apart from other more developed doctrines.
In a nutshell I think this is a stretch.
In a nutshell I think this is a stretch.
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I would submit that the meaning of Elect, per the Calvinist doctrine and the Reformed that ascribe to the TULIP formula is precisely what could be construed as a stretch.
To think that the Creator of all things premeditated whom He would save from what would have to be His premeditation of the fall, and all this prior to creating anything at all, and so as to also, and this is key, predetermine those whom He did not predetermine worthy of His Election would perish as planned by that Creator of all things, is Elitist doctrine.
Not only does it form in its theology an immoral sadistic creator that premeditates a fall after predetermining whom he'd save from it, but it also teaches that those whom that deity did not plan to save through his election would die damned due to his having created the construct that allowed first, through premeditation, the fall of humankind.
We're told our thoughts are not as God's thoughts and God's thoughts are not like unto our own. Calvinism, RT that ascribe to TULIP, is clearly man's thoughts. I pre=planned whom I'd save and then I pre-arranged through my own creation of it, that which humans would need to be saved from. All the while having also pre-determined the human creation that needed saving would be totally incapable of entering my grace or having faith in me so as to be saved from the fate I pre-planned, pre-arranged, for the non-elect, unless or until I made them to enter my grace, have faith, so as to be the elect I pre-arranged by name!
In a world where humans in the beginning were created in the image and likeness of God, that construct encapsulated by TULIP, tells us humans at birth do not have a chance of being good. Unless they are the one's TULIP's god pre-arranged to be put into god's grace by god, and then made to have faith in god by god. Because first and foremost that god made everyone, even the Elect who were not yet changed by god's will as pertains to obtaining grace, and faith, would be totally depraved. In a world where that same god pre-arranged sin to enter in.
That god is something we need to save ourselves from!
TULIP
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.
Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.
Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.
To think that the Creator of all things premeditated whom He would save from what would have to be His premeditation of the fall, and all this prior to creating anything at all, and so as to also, and this is key, predetermine those whom He did not predetermine worthy of His Election would perish as planned by that Creator of all things, is Elitist doctrine.
Not only does it form in its theology an immoral sadistic creator that premeditates a fall after predetermining whom he'd save from it, but it also teaches that those whom that deity did not plan to save through his election would die damned due to his having created the construct that allowed first, through premeditation, the fall of humankind.
We're told our thoughts are not as God's thoughts and God's thoughts are not like unto our own. Calvinism, RT that ascribe to TULIP, is clearly man's thoughts. I pre=planned whom I'd save and then I pre-arranged through my own creation of it, that which humans would need to be saved from. All the while having also pre-determined the human creation that needed saving would be totally incapable of entering my grace or having faith in me so as to be saved from the fate I pre-planned, pre-arranged, for the non-elect, unless or until I made them to enter my grace, have faith, so as to be the elect I pre-arranged by name!
In a world where humans in the beginning were created in the image and likeness of God, that construct encapsulated by TULIP, tells us humans at birth do not have a chance of being good. Unless they are the one's TULIP's god pre-arranged to be put into god's grace by god, and then made to have faith in god by god. Because first and foremost that god made everyone, even the Elect who were not yet changed by god's will as pertains to obtaining grace, and faith, would be totally depraved. In a world where that same god pre-arranged sin to enter in.
That god is something we need to save ourselves from!
TULIP
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.
Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.
Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.
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How about we consider a Calvinist ministry and their teaching about the Five Points *TULIP of Calvinism.
The Ligonier Ministry
Predestination: What Does This Mean for the Non-Elect?
from Daniel Hyde Aug 29, 2014
Decretum horribile. That’s what John Calvin called the doctrine of reprobation (Institutes 3.23.7). It means the “awe-full decree.” We’ve seen in the previous five parts of this series that our Triune God in His amazing grace has elected or predestined some of fallen humanity to salvation. In this final post, the question we are faced with is what of the rest of humanity? Reformed theology typically confesses what is known as double predestination. The Canons of Dort (CD) define this doctrine as “the express testimony of sacred Scripture that not all, but some only, are elected, while others are passed by in the eternal decree” (CD 1.15).
This is a very serious confession. Let me focus our hearts on the biblical teaching before addressing two practical struggles this doctrine can bring up.
[...]
"So is this doctrine biblical? Yes. A simple reading of Scripture shows that not only are some chosen to salvation in God’s eternal purpose, but some are not. Those Scripture passages that teach God’s election of a particular people unto salvation also teach God’s non-election of others.
This is where a distinction is helpful to understand this. Preterition is God’s passing over some when He choose others. Condemnation is God’s actual consigning the passed over to eternal punishment. Condemnation, therefore, is subsequent to preterition. In other words, election and reprobation are not precisely parallel, as God’s positive choice in grace is what makes us elect, while His withholding of grace by passing by means that others will be left in their sins and because of that are therefore condemned by God.
"
[Continues @ Link]
The Fine Points of Calvinism
by R.C. Sproul
The late theologian Cornelius Van Til once made the observation that Calvinism is not to be identified with the so-called five points of Calvinism. Rather, Van Til concluded that the five points function as a pathway, or a bridge, to the entire structure of Reformed theology. Likewise, Charles Spurgeon argued that Calvinism is merely a nickname for biblical theology. These titans of the past understood that the essence of Reformed theology cannot be reduced to five particular points that arose as points of controversy centuries ago in Holland with the Remonstrants, who objected to five specific points of the system of doctrine found in historic Calvinism. Those five points have become associated with the acrostic TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints.
Continues @ Link
The Ligonier Ministry
Predestination: What Does This Mean for the Non-Elect?
from Daniel Hyde Aug 29, 2014
Decretum horribile. That’s what John Calvin called the doctrine of reprobation (Institutes 3.23.7). It means the “awe-full decree.” We’ve seen in the previous five parts of this series that our Triune God in His amazing grace has elected or predestined some of fallen humanity to salvation. In this final post, the question we are faced with is what of the rest of humanity? Reformed theology typically confesses what is known as double predestination. The Canons of Dort (CD) define this doctrine as “the express testimony of sacred Scripture that not all, but some only, are elected, while others are passed by in the eternal decree” (CD 1.15).
This is a very serious confession. Let me focus our hearts on the biblical teaching before addressing two practical struggles this doctrine can bring up.
[...]
"So is this doctrine biblical? Yes. A simple reading of Scripture shows that not only are some chosen to salvation in God’s eternal purpose, but some are not. Those Scripture passages that teach God’s election of a particular people unto salvation also teach God’s non-election of others.
This is where a distinction is helpful to understand this. Preterition is God’s passing over some when He choose others. Condemnation is God’s actual consigning the passed over to eternal punishment. Condemnation, therefore, is subsequent to preterition. In other words, election and reprobation are not precisely parallel, as God’s positive choice in grace is what makes us elect, while His withholding of grace by passing by means that others will be left in their sins and because of that are therefore condemned by God.
"
[Continues @ Link]
The Fine Points of Calvinism
by R.C. Sproul
The late theologian Cornelius Van Til once made the observation that Calvinism is not to be identified with the so-called five points of Calvinism. Rather, Van Til concluded that the five points function as a pathway, or a bridge, to the entire structure of Reformed theology. Likewise, Charles Spurgeon argued that Calvinism is merely a nickname for biblical theology. These titans of the past understood that the essence of Reformed theology cannot be reduced to five particular points that arose as points of controversy centuries ago in Holland with the Remonstrants, who objected to five specific points of the system of doctrine found in historic Calvinism. Those five points have become associated with the acrostic TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints.
Continues @ Link
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And you're able to take comfort in its wisdom and understand its message? When you are not a member of the Reformed Theology church or a Calvinist?
Unfortunately, those two parties are led to believe first and foremost that they are Totally Depraved and thus are unable to do so.
Unless and until God anoints them with his Irresistible Grace.
But this is the thing about that. How would someone know they have that? What if they think they do becasue they think they understand what the scriptures are saying now? But they're wrong.
One of the other problems with TULIP is it is self fulfilling, self affirming, for the believer in it.
Someone can be the worst person ever and then they have this epiphany that they need Christ. They go to church, they read the Bible, they pray, they get baptized, they are saved!
They must be the elect.
But when TULIP and the Canon of Dort, aka the Five Articles Against the Remonstrants , particularly, arrived at to refute Arminius and Arminianism, provide a blueprint as to what it means to be one of the Elect, we read it is a graduation effect. Moving through life someone may think they are the Elect due to their growing in their faith, but yet, not until they are dead are they able to know for sure.
Canon of Dort Article 18 To those who murmur at the free grace of election and just severity of reprobation, we answer with the apostle: “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” (Rom. 9:20), and quote the language of our Savior: “Is it not lawful for Me to do what I will with Mine own?” (Matt. 20:15). And therefore with holy adoration of these
mysteries, we exclaim in the words of the apostle: “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen” (Rom. 11:33–36)
The true doctrine concerning election and rejection having been explained, the Synod rejects the errors of those who teach:
Rejection 1 That the will of God to save those who would believe and would persevere in faith and in the obedience of faith, is the whole and entire decree of election unto salvation, and that nothing else concerning this decree has been revealed in God's Word. For these deceive the simple and plainly contradict the Scriptures which declare that God will not only save those who will believe, but that He has also from eternity chosen certain particular persons to whom above others He in time will grant both faith in Christ and perseverance, as it is written: “I have manifested Thy Name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world” (John 17:6). “And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). And: “According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love” (Eph. 1:4).
Rejection 2That there are various kinds of election of God unto eternal life: the one general and indefinite, the other particular and definite; and that the latter in turn is either incomplete, revocable, nondecisive and conditional, or complete, irrevocable, decisive and absolute. Likewise: that there is one election unto faith and another unto salvation, so that election can be unto justifying faith without being a decisive election unto salvation. For this is a fancy of men’s minds, invented regardless of the Scriptures, whereby the doctrine of election is corrupted, and this golden chain of our salvation is broken: “Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified” (Rom. 8:30).
Rejection 3That the good pleasure and purpose of God, of which Scripture makes mention in the doctrine of election, does not consist in this, that God chose certain persons rather than others, but in this, that He chose out of all possible conditions (among which are also th e works of the law), or out of the whole order of things, the act of faith which from its very nature is undeserving, as well as its incomplete obedience, as a condition of salvation, and that He would graciously consider this in itself as a complete obedience and count it worthy of the reward of eternal life. For by this injurious error the pleasure of God and the merits of Christ are made of none effect, and men are drawn away by useless questions from the truth of gracious justification and from the simplicity of Scripture, and this declaration of the apostle is charged as untrue: “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Tim. 1:9).
Whole Canon of Dort
Unfortunately, those two parties are led to believe first and foremost that they are Totally Depraved and thus are unable to do so.
Unless and until God anoints them with his Irresistible Grace.
But this is the thing about that. How would someone know they have that? What if they think they do becasue they think they understand what the scriptures are saying now? But they're wrong.
One of the other problems with TULIP is it is self fulfilling, self affirming, for the believer in it.
Someone can be the worst person ever and then they have this epiphany that they need Christ. They go to church, they read the Bible, they pray, they get baptized, they are saved!
They must be the elect.
But when TULIP and the Canon of Dort, aka the Five Articles Against the Remonstrants , particularly, arrived at to refute Arminius and Arminianism, provide a blueprint as to what it means to be one of the Elect, we read it is a graduation effect. Moving through life someone may think they are the Elect due to their growing in their faith, but yet, not until they are dead are they able to know for sure.
Canon of Dort Article 18 To those who murmur at the free grace of election and just severity of reprobation, we answer with the apostle: “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” (Rom. 9:20), and quote the language of our Savior: “Is it not lawful for Me to do what I will with Mine own?” (Matt. 20:15). And therefore with holy adoration of these
mysteries, we exclaim in the words of the apostle: “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen” (Rom. 11:33–36)
The true doctrine concerning election and rejection having been explained, the Synod rejects the errors of those who teach:
Rejection 1 That the will of God to save those who would believe and would persevere in faith and in the obedience of faith, is the whole and entire decree of election unto salvation, and that nothing else concerning this decree has been revealed in God's Word. For these deceive the simple and plainly contradict the Scriptures which declare that God will not only save those who will believe, but that He has also from eternity chosen certain particular persons to whom above others He in time will grant both faith in Christ and perseverance, as it is written: “I have manifested Thy Name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world” (John 17:6). “And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). And: “According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love” (Eph. 1:4).
Rejection 2That there are various kinds of election of God unto eternal life: the one general and indefinite, the other particular and definite; and that the latter in turn is either incomplete, revocable, nondecisive and conditional, or complete, irrevocable, decisive and absolute. Likewise: that there is one election unto faith and another unto salvation, so that election can be unto justifying faith without being a decisive election unto salvation. For this is a fancy of men’s minds, invented regardless of the Scriptures, whereby the doctrine of election is corrupted, and this golden chain of our salvation is broken: “Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified” (Rom. 8:30).
Rejection 3That the good pleasure and purpose of God, of which Scripture makes mention in the doctrine of election, does not consist in this, that God chose certain persons rather than others, but in this, that He chose out of all possible conditions (among which are also th e works of the law), or out of the whole order of things, the act of faith which from its very nature is undeserving, as well as its incomplete obedience, as a condition of salvation, and that He would graciously consider this in itself as a complete obedience and count it worthy of the reward of eternal life. For by this injurious error the pleasure of God and the merits of Christ are made of none effect, and men are drawn away by useless questions from the truth of gracious justification and from the simplicity of Scripture, and this declaration of the apostle is charged as untrue: “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Tim. 1:9).
Whole Canon of Dort
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I'm trying to figure out the point of all this contention surrounding this stuff.
I'm not going to attribute this quote to anyone, but I like it. And am trying to sort of live by it.
I promise you if you asked me 5 yrs ago who John Calvin was I would have said " Isn't he the designer jeans guy?"
CC has enlightened me to who he is and why people like the systemic theology that comes from him and other Church fathers. I confess I don't like following a system. But as I learn more and more about what these "dreaded" calvinists believe, I'm truly confused why there is so much animosity towards them. And I would say that animosity kinda goes both ways.
So I come at this not reading any of his, or other Church father's writings or opinions. Having said that, pointing out that EVERY Christian I know, or have ever known ALL say 'God is in control". So why is it so distasteful to think that God is in control of who His Children are?
Why are we so afraid of that? No matter how deep you dig, God is at the bottom of our thoughts, motives and yes, even our faith.
There is literally NO reason for me to be a Christian other than God drew me and gave me the faith to believe the Word, and ultimately in His Son.
My brother got saved in the navy, came home, and eventually presented the Gospel to me, and asked me to go to his Church.
WHAT!!!??? You gotta be crazy! We did the Church thing and hated it! (8 yrs Catholic grammar school). Besides, I have a blossoming career going here in partying!
BUUUT.... the seed was planted, and I can't even remember how it even came to pass, but several yrs later... I found myself in His Church! Right away I knew something was different here. I now believe it was the Presence of the Holy Spirit. At some point, unfortunately I don't have an exact date, I truly believed that Jesus Christ was who He said He was,and did what the Word says He did, and that HE was the ONLY way to Salvation. My wife soon followed suit.
10 yrs later I strayed so bad, I thought the Lord was done with me, and that I could never go back to Him. Stopped Church, Bible reading, I couldn't even listen to a Christian song without feeling condemnation. So now it's just about living the drudgery of life and moving on to raising a family.
BUUUT..... several yrs after that, I inexplicably found myself on my knees praying and worshiping Him, and for the 1st time in many years I heard Him! And a peace that I hadn't had for many yrs began to grow in me. From that day on, the Lord has blessed me in every conceivable metric. Mostly with loving brothers and sisters in Christ.
And I know that He loves me. And I know that I love Him. So please, someone tell me how all that came about because I chose Him? That I reasoned it out? IT WASN'T ME!
Because GOD IS IN CONTROL, not Ed.
I'm not going to attribute this quote to anyone, but I like it. And am trying to sort of live by it.
I promise you if you asked me 5 yrs ago who John Calvin was I would have said " Isn't he the designer jeans guy?"
CC has enlightened me to who he is and why people like the systemic theology that comes from him and other Church fathers. I confess I don't like following a system. But as I learn more and more about what these "dreaded" calvinists believe, I'm truly confused why there is so much animosity towards them. And I would say that animosity kinda goes both ways.
So I come at this not reading any of his, or other Church father's writings or opinions. Having said that, pointing out that EVERY Christian I know, or have ever known ALL say 'God is in control". So why is it so distasteful to think that God is in control of who His Children are?
Why are we so afraid of that? No matter how deep you dig, God is at the bottom of our thoughts, motives and yes, even our faith.
There is literally NO reason for me to be a Christian other than God drew me and gave me the faith to believe the Word, and ultimately in His Son.
My brother got saved in the navy, came home, and eventually presented the Gospel to me, and asked me to go to his Church.
WHAT!!!??? You gotta be crazy! We did the Church thing and hated it! (8 yrs Catholic grammar school). Besides, I have a blossoming career going here in partying!
BUUUT.... the seed was planted, and I can't even remember how it even came to pass, but several yrs later... I found myself in His Church! Right away I knew something was different here. I now believe it was the Presence of the Holy Spirit. At some point, unfortunately I don't have an exact date, I truly believed that Jesus Christ was who He said He was,and did what the Word says He did, and that HE was the ONLY way to Salvation. My wife soon followed suit.
10 yrs later I strayed so bad, I thought the Lord was done with me, and that I could never go back to Him. Stopped Church, Bible reading, I couldn't even listen to a Christian song without feeling condemnation. So now it's just about living the drudgery of life and moving on to raising a family.
BUUUT..... several yrs after that, I inexplicably found myself on my knees praying and worshiping Him, and for the 1st time in many years I heard Him! And a peace that I hadn't had for many yrs began to grow in me. From that day on, the Lord has blessed me in every conceivable metric. Mostly with loving brothers and sisters in Christ.
And I know that He loves me. And I know that I love Him. So please, someone tell me how all that came about because I chose Him? That I reasoned it out? IT WASN'T ME!
Because GOD IS IN CONTROL, not Ed.
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I
oh right
well I put him on ignore and then promptly forgot he was in here because of his outrageous way of twisting and answering questions with questions and then saying the other person does not answer
I wonder if he knows he does that...some people really do not
carry on
well I put him on ignore and then promptly forgot he was in here because of his outrageous way of twisting and answering questions with questions and then saying the other person does not answer
I wonder if he knows he does that...some people really do not
carry on
HE KNOWS!
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