Is unconditional election biblical?

Hevosmies · Oct 28, 2019

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 28, 2019

Melach said:

Wrong my friend. The Christ goes on later to tell the ppl in John 10 who He would die for, His sheep. This ties into John 6:37ff.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

This is not to be confused as a single, centralized event my friend. This is Him talking about all those who believe, namely, the elect of God.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Again, this is not to be confused as a single, centralized event. This is Him about all believers who believe, namely, the elect of God. In vs 53 He mentions eating His flesh, not to be confused with the Eucharist the RCC uses, but to be in communion with God. If this is solely for His disciples, then that leaves us out.

posthuman · Oct 28, 2019

Melach said:

Erm, through verse 59 He is speaking to a multitude. Then through 66 He's speaking to a large number of disciples. Only in 67-71 does He turn and address the 12.

When He says all the Father has given to me will come, that's v. 37, and when He says no one can come unless the Father draws them that's v. 44 and it's in both cases addressed directly to over 5,000 men plus however many women and children.

In neither case does the text indicate that He is speaking only about disciples or apostles - do you believe Jesus preached different gospels to disciples than to other people? Like, disciples can only come to Him if God draws them and all disciples He draws will come and never be cast away, but 'ordinary believers' are different and can come without being drawn, can be drawn and not come, and can come and be cast away? Can you support that with scripture? Why does He say 'make disciples' of all nations then?

Thanks.
Really weird of you, but thanks...

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 28, 2019

Hevosmies said:

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Bingo! But many revert to mystical means for them being saved.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 28, 2019

Melach said:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, How do ppl garner the grace of God, my friend? How do they gain access into it? Remember, in Romans 1, ppl in such cases suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. They look at all that God has made, and they in turn, give credit to some idol of their own making. Romans 1 is not a treatise on how man can get right with God, but rather, an exposition on man’s utter ruinness in their fallen state.

But getting back to Titus 2 for a moment. You quoted vs 11, but stopped there. Allow me go further. 12
instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

The context of Titus 2:11 is not found solely in Titus 2:11, but that which is before and after that verse.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 28, 2019

IFOLLOWHIM said:

I’ve got my popcorn ready. Hey! What can I say? I love popcorn.

John146 · Oct 28, 2019

Hevosmies said:

God rules over all creation, but He has other attributes as well like grace and mercy if we call upon Him.

Btw, big difference between God’s foreknowledge and unconditional election.

IFOLLOWHIM · Oct 28, 2019

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Lol
As do I! And Mr. Jackson too!

Whispered · Oct 28, 2019

Grandpa said:

No, that is not what the Bible teaches. You are wrong, entirely.

7seasrekeyed · Oct 28, 2019

Hevosmies said:

actually God is outside of time

He is not mortal nor does He exist in the same plane that we do

He also knows the past

next

7seasrekeyed · Oct 28, 2019

Hevosmies said:

right

WHOSOEVER

not limited edition and some made for perdition

* no extra charge for the rhyming couplet

7seasrekeyed · Oct 28, 2019

John146 said:

they don't seem to want to acknowledge any sort of anything that does not underscore the big 5

I have also not had a response on the fact God created hell for the devil and his angels NOT humans

God is not willing that any should perish, but people who do not accept Christ will

however, it is not God's plan to create more logs for the fire

His plan has always been to redeem mankind...not stoke the furnace

Whispered · Oct 28, 2019

Hevosmies said:

The Reformed Theologians and Calvinists dismiss the power of preaching.
The Book of Romans chapter 10
17.Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 28, 2019

Whispered said:

Wrong my friend. We believe that the word of God is very necessary in the saving of a soul. Without the word of God, none can be saved.

Now, tell me what comes of those who die never hearing the gospel, never had a bible, never had a missionary witness unto them please.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 28, 2019

Whispered said:

1. Sola Gratia (Grace alone)
Salvation is the free gift of God to man. It is given by God’s Grace alone and not through any merit on the part of the Christian.

2. Sola Fide (Faith alone)
We are judged righteous in the sight of God purely on the basis of our faith. The atoning sacrifice of Christ leads to righteousness being imputed to us as sinners through a legal declaration by God. This is often stated as Justification by faith alone. There is a clear distinction between Justification and Sanctification, the latter being the growth in holiness arising from the work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian.

3. Solus Christus (Christ alone)
Christ is the one Mediator between God and man and our salvation is accomplished only through His death and resurrection.

4. Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone)
Scripture alone is the only infallible source of divine revelation and the final authority for matters of faith and practice. Sola Scriptura does not mean that all truth is contained in the Bible (for example the Nicene Creed is widely accepted and recited within orthodox Christianity), but rather that all mankind needs to know for salvation is contained within its pages.

5. Soli Deo Gloria (To the glory of God alone)
Every aspect of the Christian life is to be seen as giving glory to God. In essence, this summarises the other four Soli above. It also stemmed from the reformers opposition to what they perceived as the unwarranted glorification of the Popes and other clergy.

These are what are called the Five Solas of the Reformation. All reformed folk adhere to these. They are focused upon the Christ and the scriptures that speak of Him.

Whispered · Oct 28, 2019

notuptome said:

And yet, FGC's theology refutes that. As they've said time and again, natural man is not able to understand things of the spirit.
The jailer asked the question. Paul was able to answer with the Gospel. And the jailer was then able to accept the Gospel as truth and be saved.
None of that pertains to RT, Calvinism, nor FGC's theology that they have argued here.

Whispered · Oct 28, 2019

Hevosmies said:

Sure there is.
The Gospel truth refutes the Unconditional Election teaching.

So that people may know what we're discussing in the event you entered this thread at this stage without reading all the many pages prior. UC is part of a false doctrine that, in a nutshell, informs you the reader that God gives His grace, and gives His chosen people, the elect, those He pre-selected to save before anything was created, by force and against their will. Because, and this is key to understand UC is not part of a doctrine that honors the actual God of creation, God first created all humans to be wholly immoral and without the capacity to exercise free will choices for their own sake. Because they were made by God to be totally immoral and devoid of righteousness.
Some adherents of UC argue that no, God gives people the free will to choose how to live their life! But they insist it stops there. And they are not able to choose to follow Jesus unless God makes them to.
Of course that is illogical. And it also sullies the Omni-Benevolent character of God to argue God gave totally depraved , think about the meaning of those two words, the ability to choose how to live, which means to choose how to live rightly or wrongly, and that is where it stops.

God didn't allow them to freely choose to hear the Gospel and choose to repent and come to Jesus.
When someone is first totally depraved, as Reformed Theology and Calvinism state, then they are naturally unable to make free will choices for the good of their life. Which refutes the argument by some that God lets the Totally Depraved only to choose by their own free will how to live. But not how to live eternally in Christ.

Unconditional election - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_election

Overview
Unconditional election (also known as unconditional grace) is a Reformed doctrine relating to Predestination that describes the actions and motives of God in eternity past, before he created the world, where he predestinated some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the old and new Testaments of the Bible. God made these choices according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons.

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
More reading: Flaws in Calvinism
Note: Calvinism and Reformed Theology share the same precepts. This precept culminates in the acronym , TULIP.
T=Total Depravity
U= Unconditipnal Election
L=Limited Atonement
I=Irresistible Grace
P=Perseverance of the Saints

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 28, 2019

Whispered said:

Sure there is.
The Gospel truth refutes the Unconditional Election teaching.

So that people may know what we're discussing in the event you entered this thread at this stage without reading all the many pages prior. UC is part of a false doctrine that, in a nutshell, informs you the reader that God gives His grace, and gives His chosen people, the elect, those He pre-selected to save before anything was created, by force and against their will. Because, and this is key to understand UC is not part of a doctrine that honors the actual God of creation, God first created all humans to be wholly immoral and without the capacity to exercise free will choices for their own sake. Because they were made by God to be totally immoral and devoid of righteousness.
Some adherents of UC argue that no, God gives people the free will to choose how to live their life! But they insist it stops there. And they are not able to choose to follow Jesus unless God makes them to.
Of course that is illogical. And it also sullies the Omni-Benevolent character of God to argue God gave totally depraved , think about the meaning of those two words, the ability to choose how to live, which means to choose how to live rightly or wrongly, and that is where it stops.

God didn't allow them to freely choose to hear the Gospel and choose to repent and come to Jesus.
When someone is first totally depraved, as Reformed Theology and Calvinism state, then they are naturally unable to make free will choices for the good of their life. Which refutes the argument by some that God lets the Totally Depraved only to choose by their own free will how to live. But not how to live eternally in Christ.

Unconditional election - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_election

Overview
Unconditional election (also known as unconditional grace) is a Reformed doctrine relating to Predestination that describes the actions and motives of God in eternity past, before he created the world, where he predestinated some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the old and new Testaments of the Bible. God made these choices according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons.

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
More reading: Flaws in Calvinism
Note: Calvinism and Reformed Theology share the same precepts. This precept culminates in the acronym , TULIP.
T=Total Depravity
U= Unconditipnal Election
L=Limited Atonement
I=Irresistible Grace
P=Perseverance of the Saints

What happens to those who died never hearing the gospel, my friend?

posthuman · Oct 28, 2019

7seasrekeyed said:

I went on vacation for a week, no internet in the wilderness.

But you can call it a huff lol

Whispered · Oct 28, 2019

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

They are let to God's mercy. Because while all of creation is proof of God, all of creation does not teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, if God is to be believed as a Father who is also Omni-Benevolent and Omniscient, He knows those who were never able to hear the Gospel. And as such, is then their judge as one who is their creator, and Omni-Benevolent.
And further, because when Jesus died on the cross He took the sins of the whole world upon Himself there.
The Book of 1st Timothy chapter 4
10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

Babies don't hear the Gospel. If they die in utero, or die shortly after birth from SIDS, what happens to them?

Is unconditional election biblical?

Is unconditional election biblical?

Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

No , unconditional election is not biblical.

I don't know.

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