A QUESTION ON ETERNAL HELL

I can understand that as well, though if I may I think being a Christian isn’t like a puzzle where you got to fit in the right spot, come as you are still fits today.

Hello D, thought you might find some of these scriptures helpful also.

First, in the defense of works, which I highly endorse,

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works and the last to be more than the first.

This is just where I happened to be in a little study and thought I would take a few minutes and take a spin around some posts. After reading the responses here I would like for you to NEVER let anyone for any reason discourage you from "works". As many and often for God. I discerned you had been "saved" quite a while ago. So having received the gift of salvation, it only stands to reason you can no longer work for it, but some how "works" for God always seem to be put down. BUT if you look at that verse above
Works are more important than charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience. Makes you just go hummm….

But in answer to your question, some scriptures to look into,

Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous
4229 machah abolish, wipe out
wiped out all memory gone - God is just. He can be no other way.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name
Last time you were at a bar b que, remember when that piece of fat liquified dropped down hit a coal and the smoke of it went up? No more fat, smoke just goes. Such is death. They have "no rest" because they have never been. No one will be missed. There will be no remembrance of anyone who did not accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour.


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And the lake of fire is during this "age" or the "millennium" but is a part of the "Old". which passes away.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away and there was no more sea.

In one of your replies, you said about the age a person dies and chances. Please don't forget the Lords Day. That lasts 1000 yrs. Satan will be bound so there will be no evil to "influence or deceive". At the end of that 1000 yrs is the white throne judgment, when the books are opened along with the lake of fire. So yes, there will be a chance for those you may be worrying about.

And who will be the Priests reigning with Christ during that time?

Hope these help you to seek out the answers from the Word.

I don't post any of my darker thoughts on this site. Nothing that would cause dissention, strife, or doubt.

I only seek to edify and exhort as well as search out things in a way that is as courteous as possible.

Have I had a few times where I've said or done something "reactionary"? Sure.


So to make a blanket statement in such a way to me is not wise. You really don't know who is reading these forums and it can cause someone to stumble.

There are certainly "Married+" discussions. Do you agree?



I would encourage you to bring it up privately with someone you think has an open enough mind to have considered all these angles.

Opening such a discussion up publicly...I'm not saying don't if you really have an issue and want clarification from the body...but if your issue is with the Lord then realistically you need to just bring it up with him. I do understand that can certainly be frustrating. Sincerely. It's up to you to figure out if we can really help you at all.

I don't think your views are all that troubling btw I was just pointing it out.

What you have listed above regarding "that just as in Adam all died, so in Christ ALL shall be made alive," is the truth. The key words here being "those in Christ." That means that Those who are not in Christ will not resurrect to eternal life, but to eternal condemnation. This is supported by a well known scripture:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The above scripture means that, everyone who does not believe in God's one and only Son, will perish. Salvation is dependent upon faith in Jesus Christ. The same truth is found in John 3:36

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

The victory over all sin is applied to only those who believe in Him. The salvation that Jesus provides is not a blanket salvation where everyone is saved regardless of whether they believe or not. It requires faith!

Eternal punishment is neither a scare tactic, nor did it originate from "inadequate Latin translations." The truth regarding eternal separation from God in the Lake of fire is the word of God. Nor is the purpose of the fire of hell meant for purification, but for punishment. Only the righteous blood of Christ purifies, not fire. Those who die in their sins, their record is sealed. Love, grace and mercy are no longer in operation for those who die. After that comes the judgment.

"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, (aion and aion) who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it"

In the scripture above, the angel is swearing by Him (God) who lives for (aion and aion). While it is true that the word "aion" is defined as "a cycle of time, or an age, as you can see from the scripture above, it also means eternal, i.e. everlasting. That is unless you think that God only lives for a cycle of time or an age.

"If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

Your reference to the dead being prayed for comes from the scripture above. It is not meant to be a teaching for the practice of praying or being baptized for the dead. Paul was most likely using a pagan concept as an example for the Corinthian's claim that there was no resurrection.

So we absolutely need the grace and goodness of God....but God's love is an invitation to a wedding feast....not a threat to get us to comply. It is a call to all people for a greater life, not a fire insurance scheme.[/quote]

You have been listening to and reading the false teachings of men. And my advice to you is to stop it and that because you will be held accountable for these false teachings, which is contrary to the word of God.

Fyi, once a person dies in their sins, there is no purification, no do overs. The opportunity for salvation is no longer an option for those who die in their sins.

Only those who have believed in Christ have been reconciled to God. Those who continue in disbelief and die in that state can never be reconciled to God. Do you remember the rich man and Lazarus? When the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers, he was not sent. Also notice that the rich man did not ask Abraham why he was in torment in flame in Hades and that's because he knew that he was deserved to be there. That rich man, like all who have died in their sins, will remain in Hades until the great white throne judgment where they will be judged for every sin and idle word. Everyone's name not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

Thanks for the heads up. I appreciate it. It is not my intention to upset anyone. I,m just sharing my thoughts and feelings about things. I have already admitted that I,m on the fringes of christianity and get that people think I,m wrong, hell bound or a heretic. I,m not hiding this fact as I would do if really trying to deceive. In fact it is wonderful to be totally free to look at things almost from the outside. With a mind unencumbered by doctrines, I,m free to ask and explore...to look at things with a fresh mind.

I wouldn't say my musings are "dark" ( although you can't really get darker than eternal torment!), just free inquiry based on reading, questioning, contemplation and yes, prayer.

It is regrettable that sometimes people think the worst of me and my motivations. I think people can generally look after themselves on an adult chat room. I,m not trying to convince anyone of anything...simply share what I find. Yes, I love the cut and thrust of discussion and people are really welcome to probe and question me. It is done in good faith and I wish everyone on here a peaceful, loving life....even if they think i,m badly motivated. To me questioning is a good thing and I don't think God is threatened by it. I really doubt that someone will give up their faith because of what I type here!

But if people genuinely want me to stop posting because I upset them, then maybe it is something that I will consider. People are free to tell me if they find what I post valuable or not.

Thanks JamOn
I,m afraid that if I come as I am I will be rejected by much of the church. The puzzle has been created by the church......coz if I dont subscribe to certain doctrines I will be asked to leave.

Ahwatukee,
I "will be held accountable" for "false teachings"?? Sounds like a threat. Since you feel you have the absolute truth and I am a purveyor of false teaching ( rather than my considered thoughts) then it is a waste for me to try and share with you. I wish you well, but let's agree to disagree. Peace.

Your not alone indeed I would probably be ask to leave as well, I do visit some from time to time but not regularly.

there is 101 Dalmatians rrr denominations out there, probably can’t fit into all of them, but keep searching for one or start your own scripture says when two or three are gathered.

Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No memory of the condemned in the presence of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I love the simplicity of going into a beautiful church or cathedral and simply lighting a candle and sitting in the quiet. No one badgering me on my doctrinal purity. Just the presence of God. ( To be fair most Anglican churches dont do that.....but I wouldn't dare go somewhere fundamentalist! )

In California they have a 1 party no fault divorce law. Either party is entitled to a no fault divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable differences. So my Ex-wife did. Our church told as much as divorce = adultery and they do not allow adulterers to be members or worship with them. There was no adultery on my part but that didn't matter to them because they believed that divorce would cause it. That my wifes decision was my fault for not being in control of her decisions. If she ever fornicated or remarried, that also would be my fault. I really don't believe that divorce is an unforgivable sin.

I went directly to the Bible and stopped going to churches for years. If I don't believe the most important parts of their doctrine is correct, Like the Lordship of Jesus, Salvation, forgiveness, mercy and redemption. I won't go to a Church that dosn't practice and preach those things. I don't believe Gods church or nation is inside is inside of a building, or any single nation. I've found several that I can get along with without being a hypocrite, And two denominations I agree with nearly 100% I compare the Church's stance and practices against what the Bible teaches now, before I'll join.

Psalm 51:10-12 King James Version (KJV)

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Good day Dibby53,

These considered thoughts (as you call them) may affect and influence other believers who are not so familiar with the word of God. My concern is for the truth of God's word. Therefore when I see it being distorted, I speak up. I'm trying to get you to understand the severity of what you posting.

You need to have a better understanding of God's word before you start posting false ideas. Instead of arguing with me about it, you should be like a Berean and check out those scriptures that I have been providing.

Though God has shown mercy and Grace upon the wicked, only those who believe in Christ will ultimately benefit from God's eternal joy. There will be no mercy, grace or love from God for those who die in their sins and are judged at the great white throne judgment.

While it is true that God doesn't want anyone to perish, He is not goin to deviate from His word by letting the wicked off without having faith.

All sin must be accounted for. For those who are in Christ, He was held accountable for the sins of of every believer. Those who reject Him and die in that state, they will be held accountable for their own sins, because they will have no blood covering them. I'm trying to get you to understand that you are on the wrong track.

Regarding me being the purveyor of truth, if Paul or any of the other apostles were here, they would contend against you in the same way Not that I am an apostle or anything. However, I do have 45 years of study and I know of what I speak. And some of what you are claiming is contrary to God's word.

Unfortunately, not everyone is going to be saved and that by their own volition.

The judgment for sin is eternal, conscious, existence in separation from God in the lake of fire

There is no annihilation or extinction

Blotted out. That doesn't sound more like completely gone to you??

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away and there was no more sea.
Lake of fire passes away, part of the first heaven and earth.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.



Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
Psalm 9:6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end and thou hast destroyed cities their memorial is perished with them.

There is a book of life. Is there a book of death?

To have the lake of fire would be an abomination. God wishes that all would come to Him. These are His children, whose smoke will go up forever and ever. Do you really believe that our Holy and Righteous Father would punish a soul for eternity because that soul didn't love Him? I can find no peace in that what so ever. That goes against EVERY THING God stands for not to mention what He says is going to happen.

I don't deal in what scripture sounds like to me, but what the actual Hebrew and Greek words mean. Consider the following:

"And they (wicked) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

aiónios translated as "eternal" can mean "a cycle of time, an age, or having no beginning or ending. It is the context that will bear out the meaning of the word.

In the scripture above, the same word "aionios" is used to describe both the wicked and the righteous. Since we know that eternal/aionios for the righteous is defined as on-going, never ending life in the kingdom of God, then eternal/aionios for the wicked would have to mean on-going, never ending punishment.

All people who come into the world exist forever. It is ones standing with God which will determine eternal punishment or eternal life.

Death = on-going, conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire.

Life = on-going, conscious existence in the joy of the Lord

The scripture above is describing the eternal state which takes place after the great white throne judgment. After the end of the millennial kingdom, this present heaven and earth will pass away (Rev.20:1, 21:1) and then the great white throne judgment will take place which is the judgment for all of the unrighteous dead. Their spirits will be let out of Hades (Rev.20:13) and because their names will not be found in the book of life, they will be cast into the lake of fire.

After that, the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem.

There is no scripture that states that the lake of fire passes away. In fact Jesus also called it, everlasting fire. If it passed away, then the term everlasting would not be true. Neither would the reference of the "fire that is not quenched" be true. It is this current heaven and earth that passes away, not the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not apart of the earth, but is the final place of punishment for those whose names are not found in the book of life. The beast and the false prophet are the lake of fire's first recipients, then after the thousand years Satan is cast in. Regarding this Rev.20:10 says the following:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Notice that the beast and the false prophet who were thrown in a thousand years earlier are still there. And it states that they, the beast, the false prophet and Satan, will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is no end to that torment and therefore, the lake of fire cannot pass away. All of mankind who are thrown into the lake of fire will also be torment forever and ever.


It's God's punishment for the wicked which has no end.

Only those who believe His Son are His children. When Jesus was speaking with the Pharisees, He said that their father was the devil.

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies."

Those who reject Christ are not the children of God. And they will be held accountable for every sin, every idle word they ever spoke or thought. And that without any mercy, grace and love mixed in.

You are an emotional hearer, which has no bearing on the truth of God's word. You think that because these things don't sit right with you that they are wrong.

Understand this DeighAnn, God's salvation through His Son, is offered to all people. Those who believe are credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. His mercy extends to those who fear Him from generation to generation. Those who do not believe in His Son, have no covering for sin and are considered wicked and God's wrath rests upon them. The smoke of their torment rising up, will be those who will have not had the testimony of Jesus and who will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark. And they will do all of those things, because they will have loved their lives more than God.

You need to reconsider all that you have believed in, because it's not the truth.

I will keep you in prayer.

WHAT? No cable?

I'm not saying that...the only thing that upsets me is people intentionally causing strife, dissention, doubt. As well as fleecing.


I was just throwing it out there



I usually go through a scenario playout with "weightier" questions. This is a non-weighty example.


Mosquitos should not exist, a loving creator would not create mosquitos to plague us. I want no part of mosquitos therefore I want no part of him. I would rather burn in protest for the creation of mosquitos because my will is higher than his will and I can prove it because I have a choice to protest. I am right and he is wrong...he should explain to me why he created such an insect.

but then in such an example...am I exalting myself against the Lord? Certainly, although it doesn't feel like it. You feel justified. You are right and he owes you an explanation. He owes you nothing. Salvation is a gift. He may give you insight like a parent to a child or a monarch to a subject or a master to a slave (all of these function slightly different for me and depend on what I am asking and in what format). Many times I turn to the word in frustration and it opens up. Frustration dissipates. Alright alright. You are correct Lord, I am wrong, but at least I see why and for me that is a boon. Sometimes I just get the inspiration and "fact check" with scripture.

I'm not sure. There are plenty of things people think they "know" and I'm like...how? It is not clear. Or they mention having faith that something is so.

The only thing we are required to have faith in is in Yeshua/Jesus, and that's the most important item on the menu. The more you draw near to him the more he draws near to you. It causes a lot of things to lose relevancy in my experience.


With Eternal torment or similar questions that cannot fully be known, I take some solace in the fact that no human knows who will enter in or not, except 2 people (people being arbitrary in this instance) are guaranteed a slot but no one else is thrown in alive. So that is is of interest. Universalism cannot be 100% true but generally could be, although I HIGHLY doubt it. Only when I was dabbling did I even think of it as plausible and it just feels a bit too fluffy when considering wrath.



Anyway, I realize all that is a bit vague but possibly of some utility to you.

You sound very reasonable. I could have a fairly pleasant exchange of ideas and a fruitful discussion with you. Why? Because you admit you don't know everything. Neither do I. How could I? There are people who do claim to know for 100% certainty. Not only that, they "know" I,m 100% wrong. They say that I need to research and seek God in prayer ( assuming that I have not). That I,m on a dangerous, deceptive path. What is "fleecing"?

You need to reconsider all that you have believed in, because it's not the truth.

I will keep you in prayer.[/QUOTE]

Ok, then, please explain to me

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
1. End 1000 yrs or Millennium ending shortly

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
2. DEVIL into lake of fire

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them.
3. Great white throne

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
4. Judgment FOR ALL

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
5. Death and Hell into lake of fire

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
6. All souls into lake of fire, Judgment ends

QUOTING YOU " After the end of the millennial kingdom, this present heaven and earth will pass away (Rev.20:1, 21:1) and then the great white throne judgment will take place" End of your Quote

According to this, Gods Word, The white throne Judgment ends AND THEN we see a new heaven and earth. Please tell me HOW you justify switching them around?


Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
7. FIRST EARTH AND HEAVEN PASS AWAY
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
8. NEW JERUSALEM
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
9. GOD DWELLS WITH US
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
10. NO MORE TEARS, NEITHER SORROW (SORROW WOULD BE FOUND IN THE LAKE OF FIRE) Not to mention sorrow over a loved one being in the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
11. ALL THINGS NEW, THIS IS TRUE (lake of fire would be from the old) (I guess not the way you tell it though)
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (what about those thirsty souls you have hanging out crying and screaming in pain, pleading for relief that will never ever come in the lake of fire?? you think He would hook them up with a nice cold one??)(do you think God will at least put them far enough away so we don't have to hear it, or see it? I guess not. What would be the purpose. AFTER ALL, THEY DIDN'T LOVE HIM, THEY MUST PAY).
12. IT IS DONE

Oh and this takes place at the beginning of the Millennium, the Lords Day, when all the elements burn away.
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (evil things of men burn)
2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (looking to the future end of the Millennium)


Best thing is we will know for sure. I will pray I am right and you are wrong because for me, the thought of billions of people in pain and misery forever certainly causes me great sorrow. You know what, I am going to keep believing this way until I can't possibly anymore because God has told me that is the way it is going to be. I pray God will understand as such thoughts go against all the Word has been teaching me about His Righteousness

I do not "persuade" people to come to God because "if they don't they spent forever suffering". God wants our love. If the reason anyone decides they are going to love God just to make sure they don't burn in hell, well, it isn't really love, is it?

I think eternal, ever lasting, and such words are used without much understanding these days. Ages end. Ages begin.

Anyway, at the end of the Millennium, Satan will be loosed a short time to deceive, then fire comes from heaven, the white throne, all tossed into fire, The end of the Lords Day. THEN NEWNESS. NO EVIL TO EVER SEE THE NEWNESS.
You have given me scripture with your explanation directly opposite of the scripture with no explanation of how some other scripture got you there and then tell me I have no truth. I must admit, I do not have the same kind of truth you have.

You are right. Heaven will simply not be heaven without those I care for and love all there. How anyone could possibly contemplate someone they love burning forever and ever, without end, is beyond me. Heaven would be hell. It is not worthy of the Father of mankind.