Are the Ends always justified by the Means?

some truth in what you say. I used to think in absolutes like you. and i think when we backslide we do need a wake up call. But ive changed my image of God. He is not out to get us for breaking rules. He wants the best for us. He understands when we are forced into desperate circumstances. He forgives but only if we show the same empathy and flexibility as Him.

But ive changed my image of God. He is not out to get us for breaking rules. He wants the best for us.

If you once thought in absolutes then what do you think now?

You say



Kinda a odd statement because without Christ regardless of how much God wants the best for us, the unbelievers will be sent the Hell for their debt in sin which sin is the breaking of the moral and written law. Heaven and Hell exist for a reason.

I've always said semantics or 'nit picking' gets in the way of good old common sense. My friend's Dad used to say 'common sense isn't so common'. How true.
I think we all have to live in the real world, as Jesus did. I'm no Bible expert by any means, but didn't Jesus cry out to his Father to spare him from being crucified? (if you have the Bible link to this, do please post it for me).
We all have brains to make decisions, and sometimes, those decisions have to be made in a mere split second. Also, kids are not equipped the same as adults to make informed decisions, and are immature so at times make split decisions towards violence or to kill (there's a program on about that at the moment down here called 'Kids who kill').
We also must follow the law of the land so to speak, as we do live on an earth that has been been created by God, but there are societal rules that if not followed, have to be punished somehow (the whole debate about execution is another one for another time methinks).
I've cared for and worked with people from the worse backgrounds and who have been put in the worse situations imaginable - stuff that if I COULD tell you you'd not believe me, or think I was at the very least exaggerating. (I can't say too much without breaching confidentiality however, so I have to be very careful). If I COULD breach confidentiality, I could tell you one story that was so horrific, it gave me nightmares for months on end. I'm still not over it and have thought about that poor person many, many times & wonder how she is going.
Is a woman who turns to prostitution to feed her starving kids wrong, because in her country she can't get social security help, or she's tried everything to get food? Is a woman who was abused and assaulted in the most obscene ways possible wrong for killing her abusers? Is a person wrong for killing a man who is raping her? Is it wrong to defend your life against someone who is attacking you, with the intent to kill you? Is committing suicide wrong?
I think common sense and the law of the land has to prevail with this type of question.

Is a woman who turns to prostitution to feed her starving kids wrong, because in her country she can't get social security help, or she's tried everything to get food? Is a woman who was abused and assaulted in the most obscene ways possible wrong for killing her abusers? Is a person wrong for killing a man who is raping her? Is it wrong to defend your life against someone who is attacking you, with the intent to kill you? Is committing suicide wrong?

I think common sense and the law of the land has to prevail with this type of question.

Thank you for your thoughts.
All of these can be answered from a Biblical worldview and could find great freedom in Biblical Therapy.
As you said yourself. Common sense isnt very common. Wisdom is found in God. The law of the land can either be just or unjust. God's the ultimate judge gives us the best book for creating just laws. The best example a just judge and how to to judge situations in life.
The Bible is the blueprint for life or the manual to have the best outcome. Common sense doesn't heal the heart of these victims. The law of the land doesn't heal it either. All they do is either convict or exonerate.

I was never one to talk about Hell and damnation. It seems to infer we are judging . Not God. Let God worry about that.

How is speaking on Hell judging if the Word of God speaks on Hell?

I'm curious. Tell me which scripture should we hide from unbelievers? Both taught by Jesus.

This one

Matthew 13:47-50
47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Or this one.

Matthew 22:37
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Define Judging as in what do you consider judging?

I don't know what biblical therapy is sorry.
I'm also not disagreeing or agreeing with you. Sometimes we are put in situations, or born into situations, that are absolutely hideous. Abused people for example (including ALL forms of abuse), especially over many YEARS of abuse, don't always make the best moral decisions.
People's moral conscience and actions are their own. God will judge them eventually. But we need a justice system to stop everybody just descending into chaos.
And I don't understand this sentence:
'The best example a just judge and how to to judge situations in life.'

In my humble opinion itvis not helpful to quote harsh scripture to non believers. Its out of context with Gods main message which is love. Plus it is just reinforcing their negative stereotyping of Christianity. Communication and choice of scripture is very important.

We dont have to frighten people into faith. I would never say to a gay person " you will go to Hell if you keep practising sex". Small wonder they either leave the faith or never sign up. But then I dont think every single word of the Bible is the irrefutable truth. Certainly not all the literal truth.
I see our job as Christians as living the Gospel, not quoting it.

I see our job as Christians as living the Gospel, not quoting it.

I would never say to a gay person " you will go to Hell if you keep practising sex".

So morality is a shifting sand then? To you God, who is the source of morality, can change the rules any time he likes. We can't rely on that. If murder may not be murder, then all you have done is transfer the moral relativism you don't like in humans onto God.

And then there are some Christians who take pleasure in quoting harsh scripture. Watching the non believer cringe. Kind of a power trip on behalf of God?
I dont know. People like roughsoul are sincere and have good intentions I guess. But I sense he is under the spell of radical conservative Christianity. Dualistic black and white take no prisoners thinking.
Tats just just my perception. The truth is probably greyer.
I can be dismissed as a backsliding relativist for sure. A symbol of the dilution and decline of modern Christianity. I still have a lot to learn on my faith journey.
But recently I made a choice. Conservative fundamentalist Christianity is not for me. Its too simplistic and it prides itself on intolerance and division. Justice will always have a role but if we dont make the mercy of Jesus message our main focus we are seriously deluded.

Proverbs 27:5 - Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Hebrews 12:11 - Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

Matthew 18:15-17 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 - Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

Galatians 6:1 - Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Timothy 3:1-17 - This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What will you do if asked by a homosexual will my lifestyle cause me to go to Hell? Will you speak the truth?

The truth is I don't know. And neither do you.

The Truth is the Bible. Gods Word. You will have to explain why it isnt.

the literal word you mean?

What do you mean by that? Did you define it for me?

It is according to what you been by literal word. If you mean by the txt alone then I will say yes to a degree. Because even though the literal text is absolute truth some verses takes studying to put more meat on the truth. A deeper understanding of the truth. Same truth but deeper understanding.

Which part of the Bible isnt true or which part do you need more faith to believe?

You dont know Hell exists. You believe Hell exists. You havent been there. You trust the word of the Bible. I too trust a lot of what the Bible says.
Since there are so many interpretations it seems what we Christians believe exactly, varies greatly from person to person.
All Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. But we dont know it for sure. Therefore we need to take humble approach to asserting our beliefs. That we dont impose our beliefs as facts on other people .

That we dont impose our beliefs as facts on other people

Since there are so many interpretations it seems what we Christians believe exactly, varies greatly from person to person.