Pelagius' teachings are the Kool-Aid Supporting Free-Willer Theology

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PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#61
Apr 22, 2013
13,578
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#61
I don't understand what would be wrong with giving God complete and utter credit for conceiving and giving us New Spiritual Birth!
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#62
#62
PennEd said:
There's no other way to slice this answer than you believe because of your intellect and reasoning abilities.

So others DON'T believe because they have not been persuaded, which means they are dumber than you?

Runs completely counter to much Scripture. Like here:
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But GOD HATH CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
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Is salvific faith in view here?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#64
#64
PennEd said:
I don't understand what would be wrong with giving God complete and utter credit for conceiving and giving us New Spiritual Birth!
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Have I ever stated that salvation is not a work of God
Here is something Luther stated that I actually agree with, interestingly he did not view salvific faith a gift and Calvin was in agreement, I cannot find the link tot he text book ......but these were his words.

faith―holds out its
hands and opens the sack to allow itself to be presented with good
things. For as God the Giver by His love bestows this gift, therefore
we are recipients by faith, in which faith does nothing more than
receive the gift. For it is not our doing, and it cannot be merited
through our work.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#65
#65
PennEd said:
Yes. Look. The reason is the SAME reason Paul gives in Ephesians 2. NO FLESH WILL GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE.
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Faith is not meritorious, I have already made this clear, it is just that presently everyone thinks it is, but it is not.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#66
Apr 22, 2013
13,578
9,094
113
#66
UnderGrace said:
Have I ever stated that salvation is not a work of God
Here is something Luther stated that I actually agree with, interestingly he did not view salvific faith a gift and Calvin was in agreement, I cannot find the link tot he text book ......but these were his words.

faith―holds out its
hands and opens the sack to allow itself to be presented with good
things. For as God the Giver by His love bestows this gift, therefore
we are recipients by faith, in which faith does nothing more than
receive the gift. For it is not our doing, and it cannot be merited
through our work.
Click to expand...
OK. I agree. But it doesn't change that the faith we have to believe is a gift from God. Like EVERYTHING else in our lives. From each breath we take, to the ability to reason.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#68
#68
PennEd said:
OK. I agree. But it doesn't change that the faith we have to believe is a gift from God. Like EVERYTHING else in our lives. From each breath we take, to the ability to reason.
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God strengthens our faith as a gift after we are saved (y)
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#69
Apr 22, 2013
13,578
9,094
113
#69
This whole issue resolves itself if we look at it like we're supposed to. From a human perspective, and NOT from a Divine perspective.

From our perspective WE HAVE FREE WILL. We have to stop saying stuff like " well if God didn't give EVERYONE faith to believe that's not fair" (I'm speaking generally, not to anyone individually)

God IS SOVEREIGN. That's HIS perspective.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#71
#71
PennEd said:
This whole issue resolves itself if we look at it like we're supposed to. From a human perspective, and NOT from a Divine perspective.

From our perspective WE HAVE FREE WILL. We have to stop saying stuff like " well if God didn't give EVERYONE faith to believe that's not fair" (I'm speaking generally, not to anyone individually)

God IS SOVEREIGN. That's HIS perspective.
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Yes I would agree, I do not believe our will is completely free....of course God is sovereign.

Problem solved between PennEd and me....may it not be a BDF first or last!! :D
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#72
#72
UnderGrace said:
Yes I would agree, I do not believe our will is completely free....of course God is sovereign.

Problem solved between PennEd and me....may it not be a BDF first or last!! :D
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I guess I spoke to soon, oh well at least we modeled civility I hope! ;)
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#73
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#73
UnderGrace said:
That would be Madam....

.....we are called to believe/faith and that is not a work, nor is it mertorious, reason still exists in the seat of man therefore he can be persuaded/believe...... God does not do it for us, but God is still sovereign because He decides what He does and does not do with foreknowledge of all things ..... There all your problems solved and I did not have to write a treatise or an Institute to hammer it out.
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Ok, so you believe in open theism apparently..a dummy god who doesn't know the future in detail? A god that lives life in sequence like humans?

This is the logical conclusion of free willer theology, by the way. It's called "open theism" or "process theology". God is learning as he goes along.

By the way, man is more than just sick..he is spiritually dead. Read Ephesians 2:1-10. He has to be made alive again. And he has to be given the gift of faith. It is part of the entire package that is salvation.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#74
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
#74
UnitedWithChrist said:
Ok, so you believe in open theism apparently..a dummy god who doesn't know the future in detail? A god that lives life in sequence like humans?

This is the logical conclusion of free willer theology, by the way. It's called "open theism" or "process theology". God is learning as he goes along.

By the way, man is more than just sick..he is spiritually dead. Read Ephesians 2:1-10. He has to be made alive again. And he has to be given the gift of faith. It is part of the entire package that is salvation.
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Question: Did God know that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would not destroy them? Careful, don’t make God out to be a liar.

Has God chosen to limit His knowledge? Are future decisions even knowledge until they come to pass?
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#75
Apr 22, 2013
13,578
9,094
113
#75
UnderGrace said:
Yes I would agree, I do not believe our will is completely free....of course God is sovereign.

Problem solved between PennEd and me....may it not be a BDF first or last!! :D
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How bout we tackle The JEWS!.....:D
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#76
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#76
John146 said:
Question: Did God know that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would not destroy them? Careful, don’t make God out to be a liar.

Has God chosen to limit His knowledge? Are future decisions even knowledge until they come to pass?
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God knew Nineveh would repent. What makes you think he didn't?

He sent Jonah there knowing full well that they would repent. God ordains both means and the end.

No, God has not chosen to limit his knowledge. For one, he would have to know the events first before deciding which ones to remember, and then he would have to forget them.

I don't worship your Alzheimer-god.

Again, this is open theism and process theology. It seeks to reduce God to the level of a man, because those who hold this theology are idolaters. Clark Pinnock and Jesse Morrell are two noteable open theists. Jesse, in particular, has been trying to spread his goofy Pelagianism/Finneyism and open theism for a long time.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#77
#77
UnitedWithChrist said:
Ok, so you believe in open theism apparently..a dummy god who doesn't know the future in detail? A god that lives life in sequence like humans?

This is the logical conclusion of free willer theology, by the way. It's called "open theism" or "process theology". God is learning as he goes along.

By the way, man is more than just sick..he is spiritually dead. Read Ephesians 2:1-10. He has to be made alive again. And he has to be given the gift of faith. It is part of the entire package that is salvation.
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Wrong, I believe no such doctrine.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#78
#78
UnitedWithChrist said:
Ok, so you believe in open theism apparently..a dummy god who doesn't know the future in detail? A god that lives life in sequence like humans?

This is the logical conclusion of free willer theology, by the way. It's called "open theism" or "process theology". God is learning as he goes along.

By the way, man is more than just sick..he is spiritually dead. Read Ephesians 2:1-10. He has to be made alive again. And he has to be given the gift of faith. It is part of the entire package that is salvation.
Click to expand...
And perhaps have someone who has studied Koine Greek in Greece exegete Ephesians 2 for you, your doctrine may have some holes.
Just sayin.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#79
#79
UnderGrace said:
It is being persuaded/conviction, one cannot decide to be persuaded.
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Neither can one decide to believe, you either believe or you don't, or maybe you reject believing, and that goes for any idea, or principal, or concept.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#80
#80
Y'all do know that Calvanism, and arminianism are not the only two possible answers. There are those who hold that they are both in error. Some say they are the ditches on the road side, and others say that they are both pulling against each other and are wrong the both of them.
Myself I say Calvin got at least two things right while Arminius got it all wrong.
There are some good things about reformed theology, but there are some places they miss altogether. At least they don't completely fail like the revivalists do. Sadly America is rife with decision theology and it's hard to find a local church that it isn't looming around even among the reformed, ironically enough.
 
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