Forgiveness

No. Discernment and judgement are not the same things.

They were arguing about a mis quotation from Jimmy Swaggart' s son posted by Message of the cross and didn't notice two verses were improperly mixed together. A silly mix up, please forgive.

Humans will debate any and everything, especially Christians.

I know.
But I'm not

The typo was my human error, it was corrected in post number 5.

Forgiveness is something we do for our sake. That we free ourselves of that baggage of past hurts that do not serve a life moving toward a healthy future.

Hi Whispered, that idea is certainly a popular one throughout Christendom these days, but I've been wondering if it's truly Biblical Actually, I've been considering Biblical/Godly "forgiveness" recently, what it is, what purpose(s) it has, it's scope, etc., so this is a very interesting and timely topic for me

As I've considered what the Bible has to say, it seems to me that God's interest does not lie in "forgiveness" by itself. Rather, forgiveness seems like the starting point (by the injured party) towards God's actual objective for us, which is "reconciliation."

This is also why I'm considering the idea that the injured party actually shirks his/her Christian duty and acts in an unloving manner toward their neighbor/brother/sister whenever they choose to forgive them willy-nilly, IOW, apart from true repentance.

Here are two statements, one a commandment by Jesus, the other an admonishment. Both concern forgiveness from God, from others, and/or for others.


Except for the two very special cases in the Bible of 1. Jesus in the midst of dying on the Cross, and 2. Stephen in the midst of dying by stoning, do you know of any other Biblical accounts, OT or New, where forgiveness is offered to a person who has not first repented and asked for it

While we certainly need to be ~ready~ to forgive others, and it is our Christian duty to do so whenever we are ~asked~, is "forgiving" someone silently/behind their back (for our sake/for the purpose of 'feeling better about ourselves'), what we Christians should actually be doing?

Thank you for your thoughts about this (I think I have a long way yet to go in my studies about this topic).

~Deut
p.s. - One last thing, we are never to ~hate~ anyone else, even those who have harmed us. In fact, we are to treat others just like we expect/hope to be treated by them (no matter how badly we are actually being treated by them in the moment .. Matthew 7:12). Could that be what is really behind this new/popular thought/trend of silent forgiveness apart from repentance, because the Holy Spirit reminds us that we need to follow the Biblical mandate to love and not hate others?

Even if that's true however, the Biblical commands in passages like Luke 17:3-4 remain for us, do they not? Thanks again!

...14 If you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Are discernment and judgement the same things?

Can we discern something is not good for us or our loved ones without judging them?

I clearly need to get more savy on this case, because that video to me seemed so beautiful, so Christ centered. I do not understand why there is a debate here. We all agree we should forgive others and ourselves, right?

Obviously, I need to understand this case more. I am missing pertinent info.

Hello again sister, while I believe you are correct about this being a central passage about forgiveness, as well the importance of forgiveness to the forgiver, does it ever stipulate that we are required to forgive those who have never repented? I can certainly see how the passage could be read with that understanding, particularly because the thought of not being forgiven* by God is more than just concerning, but can we afford to get it wrong from the other side either/from what we know of God's intention for us as Christians where others are concerned (in the rest of the Bible)?

*(I agree with you that this passage, with its very serious warning about the eternity to come from God when forgiveness is not offered to others on this side of eternity, is probably where this new approach to forgiveness originated)

The more I read the Bible, the more I see the importance to God of our being His peacemakers .. Matthew 5:9, and of His intention that peace/harmony and righteousness abound in (or be restored to) all of our relationships, both with Him, and with each other as well.

Finally, if speaking the truth in love, for both the temporal and (especially) for the eternal benefit of others is vital to the Christian life/vital to the very reason for our continued existence in this world (and I believe that it is), then how can we choose to forgive others for ~our~ sakes and not for their sakes too (even when they are the offending party who has sinned against us and caused us harm)?

Jesus said, "if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him". I don't believe that I'm guilty of disobeying the latter command since becoming a Christian 33 years ago, but I am, to my shame, guilty of disobeying the former command, and that more than once

It is a painful fact that those who have been injured by another are most often the ones who begin the healing process (by confronting/rebuking the offending party) because that's what God calls us to do. In my case, I'm sure that just wanting the pain to go away as quickly as possible and move on is a big part of the reason behind my choice to be a, "people pleaser", rather than the, "peacemaker", that God calls me to be! But the more I think about it, the less loving the "people pleaser" in me seems, and the more necessary and loving choosing to be a 'peacemaker' instead seems to be.

I'm still tossing all of this around in my head (obviously), so I hope my somewhat rambling thoughts are not too hard to understand? Any additional thoughts that you may have about this topic, specifically or generally, would be greatly appreciated

Thanks again

~Deut

Forgiveness is an interesting concept, & one that I struggle with. There are some things in life I will never forgive that have been done to me. And when I say forgive, I mean FORGIVE in my heart, so that my heart is whole again and cleansed of all hatred. You can say out loud you forgive someone or make an outward show, but true forgiveness from within is something I'm going to have to leave to God/Jesus. Time does heal to some extent, and dims the memory, but there are some things I feel you just don't forget or gloss over. I pray about it all, but I haven't been given, or come up with an answer yet.
I work in areas where we care for the worse sinners - I'm not getting into a debate about what constitutes 'sin' in this post either - and I am no Bible expert (am still learning). These persons are paedophiles, child murderers, gang rapists, etc - you can use your imagination. In the main, these people are recidivists of the worse kind. It is alright to just say 'forgive' and 'Jesus forgives'. However, what bothers me is that if these people say they have changed and we forgive them, then they offend again, do we just keep forgiving them repeatedly? They may continually re-offend till they die, a rapist might rape/murder multiple women until he's caught (Ted Bundy comes to mind when typing this). And our justice system is certainly not perfect, but there has to be accountability along the way for what you do & say.
There was a man on the news yesterday who was already a father. He followed a wee 7-8 year old girl around a shopping centre, drove her out to a forest I think, & 'assaulted' her. Details re the assault were not released. After he was caught, the perpetrator said he 'was sorry he took her innocence' so it sounds like this poor wee thing was raped by him. How on earth do you forgive someone for something like that? There was also another case where a young woman was gang raped, held captive, tortured & she stated herself at the parole hearing that she will never be able to have children. Her whole life has been affected & changed by a few people's thoughtless acts (to say the least). All her dreams were shattered, she never made it in her career choice, her innocence was gone (I presume she meant she was a virgin), & she now has major trust issues.
How do you forgive someone who has done that? You certainly would not let these types of people walk around in society.
I could go on re many different stories, but you get the picture.
What do you think and what does the Bible state re these types of situations? If there are any scriptures pertinent to these questions, please enlighten me. Your own views would be interesting to read as well.

What does the above actually MEAN though? 'The Lord forgave him but he still had to pay with his life'. Is that because this criminal was already condemned to die? Does that mean that this person isn't resurrected? And what exactly is 'the first death?" I'm talking about basically here on earth - how do we forgive these types of people?
Didn't Jesus say 'a life for a life?' Shouldn't these wicked people be condemned to die by man for what they have done, then face the judgement of the Lord?
If forgiveness is permanant, and someone trespasses against us again, does that original forgiveness still stand?
I certainly wouldn't want the types of people I've described above around me and wandering around in society, even if other people say they have forgiven them.

Paragraph 1; I means he didn't go to hell. Because of his defending the Lord, humility and admission of sins he was saved from hades (Hell) He will be resurrected. When the Lord returns. The first death is that of the body in other verses it's called sleep. Saints that have died are often called asleep in the Lord. They are awaiting resurrection too. Only Enoch, Elijah and Jesus went directly to heaven. The rest are awaiting his return.

We forgive then by not holding their sins against them within our hearts and trust God to make the final decision. Anger and vengace within our hearts is poison to our spirit. Let go, let god deal with them on his terms.

If they are judged by law to die. Let them. God will deal with them on his terms on judgement day.

If they were not honestly sincere God will know it. They can't fake him. I say forgive gross offender from the heart but let the court judgement stand while on earth. It's an old con game. "I've become a christian. Please let me out. I'll never do it again."

Nope. See Galatian's 6:7 If they've sewn destruction they should expect to get reaped.

We forgive then by not holding their sins against them within our hearts and trust God to make the final decision. Anger and vengace grudges within our hearts is poison to our spirit. Let go, let god deal with them on his terms.

I worked in an ex-con rehab center and was fired for saying; "People with aids that continue having casual sex with others, have Antisocial personality disorder. They are a menace to society and should be locked up." I was fired for being a homophobic. Being gay with aids was easier to accept than celibacy. The society has gotten very twisted.

I've cared for many people with AIDS / HIV. TBH, if I was overheard saying that about a patient, I'd be told not to come back. It's my job to care for them not to judge them, however I feel in private, and since I usually work in specialised Mental Health areas, we have to be careful what we say to anybody. All the people I've encountered that identify as gay have told me that they were born that way - it's part of their make up. I wonder about that sometimes, but some of them I do believe. I don't agree they should be locked up (unless it was a joke?); we can only continue to educate the people who are not being responsible and the general public re this illness/afflication. I think some people like to 'rock the boat' & be different for shock value, or just simply because they can. Some are young, suffer from depression & don't care what they get, or just don't think. Also, people with AIDS / HIV get alot of sympathy & care, so that makes it almost an 'attractive' disease. AIDS etc is like diabetes now - it's common & treatable, so we certainly don't bat an eye at work when someone is admitted with this illness.
I don't know about them having APD - that is a whole nother conversation methinks.
Celibacy is not popular in any way whatsoever nowadays. We see promiscuity especially on TV, advertising on freeways, etc, with little or no discussion, or demonstration of the various and sometimes very serious consequences. It's all about losing your virginity as fast as you can to anyone, without even thinking about it. This attitude also astounds and shocks me, because I got teased so much when I was younger for being a virgin when all my friends had lost theirs. I was considered 'odd' & 'weird' because I didn't want to fall into bed with someone. Many times I remember sitting in the libary at school on my tea/lunch break, having no friends, because I refused to conform to what others thought I should be doing. I didn't even colour my hair or smoke - shock, horror!! Some of my friends lost their virginity when they were 13 years old - they almost saw it as a proud moment in their life, and some bragged about it, especially the guys. I think that kind of pressure & mentality is really sad. They don't even get time to be kids, and get sucked into this adult world they don't understand in any way whatsoever. It also colours their mentality in other parts of their life. I cared for a French woman who had had something like 30 abortions - abortion was her method of contraception in France. She didn't see it as wrong or evil. She was told she'd damaged her body so much she very probably wouldn't be able to have children naturally. Of course she was upset but insisted that it wasn't the constant abortions that had damaged her body. The doctor refused to give her another abortion as it wasn't safe, and she ranted & raved, threatening to sue us all.
I felt sorry for her, because she couldn't see celibacy or even using an alternative method of contraception as an alternative. Very sad.

I know, it's always wrong to tell somebody that what they did is wrong.
My bad.

Forgiveness is an interesting concept, & one that I struggle with. There are some things in life I will never forgive that have been done to me. And when I say forgive, I mean FORGIVE in my heart, so that my heart is whole again and cleansed of all hatred. You can say out loud you forgive someone or make an outward show, but true forgiveness from within is something I'm going to have to leave to God/Jesus. Time does heal to some extent, and dims the memory, but there are some things I feel you just don't forget or gloss over. I pray about it all, but I haven't been given, or come up with an answer yet.
I work in areas where we care for the worse sinners - I'm not getting into a debate about what constitutes 'sin' in this post either - and I am no Bible expert (am still learning). These persons are paedophiles, child murderers, gang rapists, etc - you can use your imagination. In the main, these people are recidivists of the worse kind. It is alright to just say 'forgive' and 'Jesus forgives'. However, what bothers me is that if these people say they have changed and we forgive them, then they offend again, do we just keep forgiving them repeatedly? They may continually re-offend till they die, a rapist might rape/murder multiple women until he's caught (Ted Bundy comes to mind when typing this). And our justice system is certainly not perfect, but there has to be accountability along the way for what you do & say.
There was a man on the news yesterday who was already a father. He followed a wee 7-8 year old girl around a shopping centre, drove her out to a forest I think, & 'assaulted' her. Details re the assault were not released. After he was caught, the perpetrator said he 'was sorry he took her innocence' so it sounds like this poor wee thing was raped by him. How on earth do you forgive someone for something like that? There was also another case where a young woman was gang raped, held captive, tortured & she stated herself at the parole hearing that she will never be able to have children. Her whole life has been affected & changed by a few people's thoughtless acts (to say the least). All her dreams were shattered, she never made it in her career choice, her innocence was gone (I presume she meant she was a virgin), & she now has major trust issues.
How do you forgive someone who has done that? You certainly would not let these types of people walk around in society.
I could go on re many different stories, but you get the picture.
What do you think and what does the Bible state re these types of situations? If there are any scriptures pertinent to these questions, please enlighten me. Your own views would be interesting to read as well.

I have been told that sarcasm is the lowest form of humor.