3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

Whispered · Oct 7, 2019

You are free to believe this. However, you are wrong.
The First Law

The First Law

The Protoplast
Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat:…

The first word God spake to man was a blessing; the second word was a law. We might have anticipated this. It seems the natural expression of the relationship which exists between the Creator and His creature. The commandment given was a very simple one, "Thou shalt not eat of the tree of knowledge." We are almost involuntarily reminded of the words of Naaman's servant — "My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, 'Wash, and be clean'?" Doubtless, in this morning of creation, Adam's soul, filled to overflowing with gladness, was ready to break forth, and say, "What shall I render unto the Lord for all his benefits toward me?" No thank offering could have seemed too great for God, no tribute of love too costly. The language of his worship could only be, "Of thine own, I give thee." And yet it was a little thing which God asked of man, for" to obey is better than sacrifice." Think, how great, how abounding was the provision for Adam; how narrow the prohibition. It was a small thing that God demanded; but a great ruin was involved in the withholding of obedience. We wonder to see how slight was the thread to which a world's destinies were suspended. Blind fools we are, slow to learn the lesson taught in every page of the Bible, and in every dispensation of personal providence, that there is nothing trivial with God. He makes great matters to turn on imperceptible hinges. We have no spiritual microscope wherewith to read that fine writing of the eternal finger of God upon every grain of ocean sand, and every glittering mote in the sunbeam, telling us of "a purpose under the heaven." Curious men have striven hard to discover what the forbidden tree of knowledge was: they would fain study the physiology of that "fruit, which brought death into our world"; but surely, there was no physical quality in that tree to enlighten the mind; it received its name, because by eating it, in transgression of God's law, man obtained the bitter knowledge of evil as an antagonist of good: the act of feeding upon its fruit taught him that there was misery as well as blessedness, darkness as well as light, evil as well as good. God called the tree according to His foreknowledge; Adam only saw the fitness of the name, when, having eaten, his eyes were opened, and he knew his ruin. There is one thing which calls, I think, for particular attention in the first law. It is, that there was no independent intrinsic evil in the forbidden act; it was evil only because God's law stood against it. If God had spoken of intrinsic evil to Adam (I use the word intrinsic, because I know no better word to express my meaning, evil, per se) he would not have understood that which was said. If God had said, Thou shalt not kill, or Thou shalt not lie, Adam would have been utterly unable to comprehend the words. He had not yet learnt the nature of evil. God took an act that was in itself perfectly innocent, and by forbidding it, He made it sin in Adam. I trust I shall not be mistaken here. I do not say, God made Adam to sin; but I say, God's law prohibiting an action, caused that action to be sinful in His creature. This is, indeed, a great lesson for us, and one which we are very unwilling to learn. God's law is as sovereign as His love. It is not necessary that a thing should be essential evil to meet with His disapprobation; it is enough that His will is against it. Behold, then, the severity of God, and fear before Him. There is no such thing as good by His law condemned. There is no such thing as evil by His law commanded.

(The Protoplast.)

FYI= Protoplast is from the Greek and means, first formed.

ForestGreenCook · Oct 7, 2019

Grandpa said:

Christ died for God's elect that he choose before the foundation of the world, Eph1. His elect, when born into this world, by natural birth with a sinful nature after Adam's sin. They remained in that state of being dead in sins (1 Cor 2:14) until God quickened them from being spiritually dead in sins to being spiritually alive with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Eph 2. They could not discern spiritual things to believe in until after they were born again. The atonement was not for believers, that is why they had to be atoned for. Payment must be paid for sin. Christ said that there would be no more sacrifice for sin. That is why he said "it is finished".

Whispered · Oct 7, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

I would say that Jesus taking the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross also tasted the spiritual death that dying in our sins would cause us had He not sacrificed Himself on the last altar where sin was made void of its power over us.
The Epistle(letter) of Saint Apostle Paul and to the Hebrews chapter 2
Death, Thanatos in the Greek.
θάνατος (thanatos)
Strong: G2288
GK: G2505
death, the extinction of life, whether naturally, Lk. 2:26; Mk. 9:1; or violently, Mt. 10:21; 15:4; imminent danger of death, 2 Cor. 4:11, 12; 11:23; in NT spiritual death, as opposed to ζωή in its spiritual sense, in respect of a forfeiture of salvation, Jn. 8:51; Rom. 6:16

The Epistle to the Hebrews chapter 2
5 For not unto angels did he subject [b]the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one hath somewhere testified, saying,
[c]What is man, that thou art mindful of him?
Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him [d]a little lower than the angels;
Thou crownedst him with glory and honor,
[e]And didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet.
For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him. 9 But we behold him who hath been made [f]a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, [g]in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the [h]author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying,
[i]I will declare thy name unto my brethren,
In the midst of the [j]congregation will I sing thy praise.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, [k]Behold, I and the children whom God hath given me. 14 Since then the children are sharers in [l]flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he [m]might bring to nought him that [n]had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and [o]might deliver all them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

This then removed the veil between the human race and God, the enmity that sin cast upon all human flesh. That is why in the temple where the most knowledgeable of the scriptures accused Christ of blasphemy witnessed the veil that was suspended before the entrance to the holy of hollies chamber to be rent, torn asunder. God delivering unto those elders in the temple that the separation between God and man was done.

The Epistle of Saint Apostle Paul to the church in Ephesus, Ephesians chapter 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; 16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 and he came and [e]preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: 18 for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. 19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom [f]each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy [g]temple in the Lord; 22 in whom ye also are builded together [h]for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

The Epistle of Saint Apostle Paul to the Romans chapter 3 verse 24
But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

The Epistle of Saint Apostle Paul to the Hebrews chapter 10 verse 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The Epistle of 2nd Corinthians 5 But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having [i]committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

What must we do then to be saved? After Christ paid the ultimate price for our sins that we were in bondage to? Christ's sacrifice a reconciliation between us and our Father? So that we are no longer spiritually dead because Jesus tasted death for us? Believe.

The Epistle of Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

The Book of John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The Epistle to the Romans 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."

If we were still spiritually dead after Christ's sacrifice on the cross, what purpose would there have been for our Lord to tell His Apostles to go forth and preach the Good News unto every living creature , that all may come to the faith and believe if those people of the world would not be able to receive that message?

The message delivers the promise and the promise quickens the heart for which the Good News resonates as truth.

posthuman · Oct 8, 2019

Whispered said:

You are free to believe this. However, you are wrong.
The First Law

The First Law

The Protoplast
Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat:…

The first word God spake to man was a blessing; the second word was a law. We might have anticipated this. It seems the natural expression of the relationship which exists between the Creator and His creature. The commandment given was a very simple one, "Thou shalt not eat of the tree of knowledge." We are almost involuntarily reminded of the words of Naaman's servant — "My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, 'Wash, and be clean'?" Doubtless, in this morning of creation, Adam's soul, filled to overflowing with gladness, was ready to break forth, and say, "What shall I render unto the Lord for all his benefits toward me?" No thank offering could have seemed too great for God, no tribute of love too costly. The language of his worship could only be, "Of thine own, I give thee." And yet it was a little thing which God asked of man, for" to obey is better than sacrifice." Think, how great, how abounding was the provision for Adam; how narrow the prohibition. It was a small thing that God demanded; but a great ruin was involved in the withholding of obedience. We wonder to see how slight was the thread to which a world's destinies were suspended. Blind fools we are, slow to learn the lesson taught in every page of the Bible, and in every dispensation of personal providence, that there is nothing trivial with God. He makes great matters to turn on imperceptible hinges. We have no spiritual microscope wherewith to read that fine writing of the eternal finger of God upon every grain of ocean sand, and every glittering mote in the sunbeam, telling us of "a purpose under the heaven." Curious men have striven hard to discover what the forbidden tree of knowledge was: they would fain study the physiology of that "fruit, which brought death into our world"; but surely, there was no physical quality in that tree to enlighten the mind; it received its name, because by eating it, in transgression of God's law, man obtained the bitter knowledge of evil as an antagonist of good: the act of feeding upon its fruit taught him that there was misery as well as blessedness, darkness as well as light, evil as well as good. God called the tree according to His foreknowledge; Adam only saw the fitness of the name, when, having eaten, his eyes were opened, and he knew his ruin. There is one thing which calls, I think, for particular attention in the first law. It is, that there was no independent intrinsic evil in the forbidden act; it was evil only because God's law stood against it. If God had spoken of intrinsic evil to Adam (I use the word intrinsic, because I know no better word to express my meaning, evil, per se) he would not have understood that which was said. If God had said, Thou shalt not kill, or Thou shalt not lie, Adam would have been utterly unable to comprehend the words. He had not yet learnt the nature of evil. God took an act that was in itself perfectly innocent, and by forbidding it, He made it sin in Adam. I trust I shall not be mistaken here. I do not say, God made Adam to sin; but I say, God's law prohibiting an action, caused that action to be sinful in His creature. This is, indeed, a great lesson for us, and one which we are very unwilling to learn. God's law is as sovereign as His love. It is not necessary that a thing should be essential evil to meet with His disapprobation; it is enough that His will is against it. Behold, then, the severity of God, and fear before Him. There is no such thing as good by His law condemned. There is no such thing as evil by His law commanded.

(The Protoplast.)

FYI= Protoplast is from the Greek and means, first formed.

sin was in the world before the law was given
(Romans 5:13)

so is this how you'd say Satan fell?
he ate from the tree?
so Satan didn't fall until after Adam was created and told not to eat of the tree?

posthuman · Oct 8, 2019

Whispered said:

You are free to believe this. However, you are wrong.
The First Law

The First Law

The Protoplast
Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat:…

The first word God spake to man was a blessing; the second word was a law. We might have anticipated this. It seems the natural expression of the relationship which exists between the Creator and His creature. The commandment given was a very simple one, "Thou shalt not eat of the tree of knowledge." We are almost involuntarily reminded of the words of Naaman's servant — "My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, 'Wash, and be clean'?" Doubtless, in this morning of creation, Adam's soul, filled to overflowing with gladness, was ready to break forth, and say, "What shall I render unto the Lord for all his benefits toward me?" No thank offering could have seemed too great for God, no tribute of love too costly. The language of his worship could only be, "Of thine own, I give thee." And yet it was a little thing which God asked of man, for" to obey is better than sacrifice." Think, how great, how abounding was the provision for Adam; how narrow the prohibition. It was a small thing that God demanded; but a great ruin was involved in the withholding of obedience. We wonder to see how slight was the thread to which a world's destinies were suspended. Blind fools we are, slow to learn the lesson taught in every page of the Bible, and in every dispensation of personal providence, that there is nothing trivial with God. He makes great matters to turn on imperceptible hinges. We have no spiritual microscope wherewith to read that fine writing of the eternal finger of God upon every grain of ocean sand, and every glittering mote in the sunbeam, telling us of "a purpose under the heaven." Curious men have striven hard to discover what the forbidden tree of knowledge was: they would fain study the physiology of that "fruit, which brought death into our world"; but surely, there was no physical quality in that tree to enlighten the mind; it received its name, because by eating it, in transgression of God's law, man obtained the bitter knowledge of evil as an antagonist of good: the act of feeding upon its fruit taught him that there was misery as well as blessedness, darkness as well as light, evil as well as good. God called the tree according to His foreknowledge; Adam only saw the fitness of the name, when, having eaten, his eyes were opened, and he knew his ruin. There is one thing which calls, I think, for particular attention in the first law. It is, that there was no independent intrinsic evil in the forbidden act; it was evil only because God's law stood against it. If God had spoken of intrinsic evil to Adam (I use the word intrinsic, because I know no better word to express my meaning, evil, per se) he would not have understood that which was said. If God had said, Thou shalt not kill, or Thou shalt not lie, Adam would have been utterly unable to comprehend the words. He had not yet learnt the nature of evil. God took an act that was in itself perfectly innocent, and by forbidding it, He made it sin in Adam. I trust I shall not be mistaken here. I do not say, God made Adam to sin; but I say, God's law prohibiting an action, caused that action to be sinful in His creature. This is, indeed, a great lesson for us, and one which we are very unwilling to learn. God's law is as sovereign as His love. It is not necessary that a thing should be essential evil to meet with His disapprobation; it is enough that His will is against it. Behold, then, the severity of God, and fear before Him. There is no such thing as good by His law condemned. There is no such thing as evil by His law commanded.

(The Protoplast.)

FYI= Protoplast is from the Greek and means, first formed.

your definition of "the law" and scriptures definition are incompatible. Galatians says "the law" wasn't given until 430 years after Abraham.

sin was in the world before the law was given

(Romans 5:13)

by one man sin entered into the world

(Romans 5:12)

Eve ate of the tree first.
how then did sin enter the world "before the law" and "through one man" ?
we are not free to believe things that directly contradict scripture.

Nehemiah6 · Oct 8, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

You have no problem contradicting God and Christ do you?

Where does Scripture say that Christ died EXCLUSIVELY for the elect? And where does the Bible says that God elects only some for salvation?

Yours is a manufactured theology which is as far from Bible truth as one can get.

notuptome · Oct 8, 2019

Does Calvinism teach repentance of sin? Does Calvinism teach that the sinner whom they deem to be elect must express sorrow over their sinfulness? Sorrow over past sin, present sin and yes the sin they will sin in the future? Or does the Calvinist lay all the burden upon God making God wholly responsible for man sinning?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hevosmies · Oct 8, 2019

notuptome said:

Yes, one of the few still teaching it.

Most definately.

Yes again. Questions like this make me wonder if you have ever taken the time to listen to Calvinist preachers of the word? Alls they do is talk about these things. Why would they not preach repentance?

Man is always responsible for their own sins. Just like those who crucified Jesus were held accountable for their actions and evil intentions of their hearts DESPITE all of it being predestinated by God to bring about GOOD, the death burial and resurrection of His Son.

Acts 4:27-28 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

^That right there shows the predestination and how it was all planned. God is in control.

But these verses right here shows that despite this humans are RESPONSIBLE

Acts 3:13-15 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

Great tool for Bible study is Scripture with Scripture.

posthuman · Oct 8, 2019

Just an historical note:

TULIP is not something John Calvin came up with. It was put together by supporters of Calvin's ideas after the church got together and condemned Arminianism as heresy.
Arminius and his followers put together some group of points in which they opposed the theology that Calvin had taught, which were all rejected by the Synod of Dort. TULIP is a set of counter-points to the heresies of Arminianism.
This all took place decades after Calvins death.

Also: Calvin himself said that there is nothing in his Institutes that Augustine had not first taught.

So really you guys are more accurately described as fighting Augustinianism.

Grandpa · Oct 8, 2019

Melach said:

That's exactly what I say too. The Atonement is limited to believers only. Only Believers are saved from their sin.

I think everybody believes this but if you tell them its Calvinism for some reason they're trained to hate it.

Melach · Oct 8, 2019

Grandpa said:

if thats what calvinism teach i agree with that belief. why dont you just say it like that then? instead of limited atonement.

PERFECTION · Oct 8, 2019

Calvinisam is a convenient truth.
What better way to apostatize.
The easier the better.
Do not worry about your life and what it represents to those around you.
Eat drink and be merry. No need to deny your flesh.
You are in or you are not.

Calvinist seem to think that God has allowed them access into His attributes. Namely His ability to see the beginning and the end of all things at the same time.
Warring: God despises such nonsense.
If you understand anything about the Holy Spirit you would know that every day He will challenge your faith. Not to defeat you but to make you stronger. Why do you need to be made stronger ? The stronger you are in Sprit the weaker you are in the flesh.
Every time a Christian exercises their faith they step out into a place that has no bottom. They have no idea where God is at in this matter, they are simply challenging God to respond. God loves these people and he will deliver them every time. However because God is all knowing He knows, always, how quickly a person can develop.
If a Calvinist has a neighbor ,going through one of the Holy Spirits challenges to increases their faith , my guess is the Calvinist would quickly determine them to be among the non choose.

Predestination according to the foreknowledge of God DOES NOT ALLOW ANYONE AN INVITATION INTO THIS DEVINE COURTYARD.

UnderGrace · Oct 8, 2019

Grandpa said:

Is not limited atonement that Jesus only bore the sins of some (elect) and not all?

Grandpa · Oct 8, 2019

Melach said:

I don't know. I didn't make up the terms. I just try to explain them.

Melach · Oct 8, 2019

UnderGrace said:

i understand now what they are saying. they are saying that everyone belief in limited atonement. because not everyone is believer.

only the believers benefit from the atonement right? i believe that. so thats why its limited, not everyone is samed

i understand it now. @Grandpa @UnitedWithChrist i owe you men apology i really didnt get it. i thought i did. Grandpa made it easy to me. i dont use this as excuse but its true i hit my head a while ago and i havent been same since. no joke. i said it in the past in not by works thread because i noticed i had asked the same question many times.

Grandpa · Oct 8, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Yes. The Atonement is limited to believers only. Only Believers are saved from their sin.

Hebrews 10:12-14
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

There is a lot more going on in Atonement, I think, than people are seeing...? Or understanding...?

An unbeliever is not forgiven of their sins. Right? They have to come to Christ and ask. Right?

This is what Limited Atonement is saying. Unbelievers are excluded from the Blessing of Christ.

Grandpa · Oct 8, 2019

Melach said:

I have ALWAYS thought that it was because I wasn't doing a good enough job in explaining what it was.

I thought if I could word it just the right way people would understand.

I really do believe that everyone, except the Universalists, believe this same thing.

Grandpa · Oct 8, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

John 3:17-18
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Only those who believe in Christ are saved.

Those who don't believe are not saved.

Those who believe in Christ are NOT condemned (by their sin).

Those who don't believe in Christ ARE condemned (by their sin).

Christs Death provided the Atonement, The Cleansing, of All our sins for those who Believe.

Those who don't believe don't receive any of the Blessings of Christ. They are condemned. They are not saved.

UnitedWithChrist · Oct 8, 2019

Melach said:

I'm not sure about the details of this convo but I like your attitude on this.

I am going to do another thread specifically on limited atonement. You may not like my explanation when I finish, though

We'll see.

I don't know what Grandpa said, so I am not sure if I would agree with him or not. I understand he is sympathetic to Reformed theology, though.

I haven't been watching this thread much as I've been working on these other threads.

Universal atonement, held by free willers, doesn't guarantee salvation for anyone, but makes it possible, depending on the person's work of faith. Limited atonement, held by Reformed people, guarantees the salvation of the elect, who will believe.

Regardless, there is no one who wants to be saved, but cannot be saved. The position of Reformed theology is that those who don't receive salvation don't want to be saved anyways.

Anyways I'm trying to provide Scriptures on each of the five "doctrines of grace" on separate threads, so that others understand the Scriptural basis for the convictions. From there, they can decide what they think Scripture is teaching.

Fundamentally, though, I believe in a God who accomplishes his will, regardless of whether, as a human, I find something distasteful. Additionally, my focus is on the believers' union with Christ, and I think that is connected to limited atonement, as I don't think any non-elect person participates in Jesus' crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection because he is never joined to Jesus. My understanding of salvation heavily revolves around my understanding of union with Christ.

I'm glad I didn't put you on ignore yet, though...I put one person in my ignore because I don't think I can have productive conversations with him on this topic.

UnitedWithChrist · Oct 8, 2019

Grandpa said:

Universal atonement, believed by free-willers, does teach that the atonement applies to everyone, though, even if they are ultimately lost. I wouldn't hold their belief on this. But, it is irrelevant because the only thing it provides is a theoretical chance for those who never believe, and this theoretical chance does them no good because they will never believe.

3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

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