Annihilationists confuse types related to eternal punishment with the reality

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UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#1
I was an annihilationist at one point, and have since rejected it.

Why?

I realize now that annihilationists confuse types in the Old Testament with the reality.

What do I mean by that?

The OT often portrayed the fate of the wicked to be reduction to ashes through the fire of judgment. The wicked were no longer able to effect their evil in the created realm. Additionally, the imagery of being eaten by maggots was used.

However, the OT communicates in shadows and types. These are "fuzzy pictures" of the reality.

If the fate of the wicked is presented in such terms in the OT, and the NT provides more detail, these NT accounts are not contradictory. The OT did not communicate in a clearly focused manner on some topics. Eternal punishment was one of them.

So, if the NT indicates that eternal torment is the fate of the wicked, and that the wicked continue to exist in a state where they are shut off from the presence of God, we need not dismiss these Scriptures, and revert back to the OT shadows and types.

I would agree that if one views Scripture in a simplistic, flattened manner, annihilationism might seem reasonable. But when one understands the way the Bible is put together, and the employment of shadows and types, annihilationism doesn't seem reasonable.

For instance, I see a typology between the Garden of Eden, the Israelite camp, Jerusalem, and the New Heavens and New Earth. In each case, a certain space is defined as holy space. The unholy are placed outside of it. They are spiritually dead in the sense that they are no longer in God's presence, but they are conscious.

For instance, Adam and Eve were placed outside of the Garden of Eden after their rebellion. Unclean individuals were placed outside of the Israelite camp, as well as the city of Jerusalem. And, finally, the unrighteous are placed outside of the New Heavens and New Earth.

They are no longer able to effect evil in the created realm anymore. However, they still exist outside of the New Heavens and New Earth.

I suggest reading Revelation 21-22 in this regard.

Anyways, I believe the fundamental problem with annihilationists is their hermeneutic. They are viewing the type (physical destruction and annihilationism) as being the reality. They are reading the OT forward into the NT, instead of using the lense of the NT to evaluate the OT.

Additionally, it is plain to see that words like death, destruction, and perishing can be viewed in ways other than the annihilationist is viewing them. For example, Ephesians 2 describes the state of the man in Adam, who is not born-again. The first verses of the chapter describe him as being dead, because he is spiritually separated from God, and not fulfilling his intended purpose as a result.

I can understand why annihilationists believe their position, but I disagree with it based primarily on the above. Understanding typology within Scripture and how the NT uses the OT is important in regards to evaluating truth-claims like this.

By the way, I don't consider annihilationists to be heretical by definition, although many annihilationists are heretical because of their other doctrines. For instance, several major cults are annihilationists.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#2
I would agree that if one views Scripture in a simplistic, flattened manner, annihilationism might seem reasonable.
This is a very enlightening statement.:unsure:.. especially the flattened part.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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#3
good topic. yes annihilationism makes gospel pointless. im not afraid to sleep forever lolz

the word for destruction that annihilationists always talk about is apollumi. but they dont look at the truth it doesnt mean just not existing.

that same word is used for "lost sheep" that Jesus came to save that which was lost.

does that mean Jesus came to save that which doesnt exist? thats nonsense. just like death does not always just mean physical death thats clear. "dead in trespasses and sins" "let the dead bury the dead" were these people zombies burying people Jesus say this to? not of course. Jesus used it in spiritual manner. and all can see it.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#4
I was an annihilationist at one point, and have since rejected it.
LOL come back to the light.

Why?

I realize now that annihilationists confuse types in the Old Testament with the reality.

What do I mean by that?
It would seem you are confused The spiritual understandings are hid in parables in the Old testament.Tey work the same is in the new.

Follow the prescribed prescription for rightly dividing the parable which without Christ spoke not.(2 Corithians4:18)

The OT often portrayed the fate of the wicked to be reduction to ashes through the fire of judgment. The wicked were no longer able to effect their evil in the created realm. Additionally, the imagery of being eaten by maggots was used.
Not imagery of being eaten by maggot’s actual maggot food

Not However, the OT communicates in shadows and types. These are "fuzzy pictures" of the reality.
In Genesis God sets up the letter of the law but men rather chose to walk by sight no faith the eternal not seen

Christ said you will "urely die"not you will surely suffer forever without end. (Merciless)

The whole body soul and mind died or is already dead . The glory of God departed . Tey showed themselves naked of that glory and tried to cover up the fact that their corrupted flesh would return to the corrupted rudiments of this world and their temporal spiri returned the father of Spirits ,

Not given a new born again spirit they will not rise on the last day. Death as the letter of the law will go up in smoke. never to rise to condemn a whole creation ever again.

No breath of the spirit essence of life no life of the Spirit.

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

If the fate of the wicked is presented in such terms in the OT, and the NT provides more detail, these NT accounts are not contradictory. The OT did not communicate in a clearly focused manner on some topics. Eternal punishment was one of them.

So, if the NT indicates that eternal torment is the fate of the wicked, and that the wicked continue to exist in a state where they are shut off from the presence of God, we need not dismiss these Scriptures, and revert back to the OT shadows and types.
Eternal punishment. . never to rise to new spiri life forever more.

The bible when looking at the twin parable called the last (sign and wonder) Jonas 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale as literal hell . Because he has faith as the sabbath rest of his labor of love. Moved by that faith not seen. . . cries out for more strength to finish rather than suffering forever and ever.

Hell being identified by belly of the whale a living suffering in a dead body. 3 days in the hearts of the earth make ups the same kind of metaphor used in the parallel as belly of the whale

,The key..By reason of a living suffering The dead know nothing feel nothing hope nothing. They will not rise out of the courted ashes of this world .

Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV) Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#5
the NT indicates that eternal torment is the fate of the wicked,
0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (NIV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (NLT)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (NKJV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (KJV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (CEB)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (ASV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (CJB)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (ESV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (YLT)

etc.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,938
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#6
good topic. yes annihilationism makes gospel pointless. im not afraid to sleep forever lolz
Why do you call total destruction "sleep"? Seems like a logical fallacy... and a deliberate misnomer to cloud the issue.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#8
0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (NIV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (NLT)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (NKJV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (KJV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (CEB)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (ASV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (CJB)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (ESV)

0 Bible results for “eternal torment .” (YLT)

etc.
Sounds like a Muslim exact phrase fallacy..you must find the statement "I am God" in red letters or Jesus isn't God.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#9
By the way, I don't consider annihilationists to be heretical by definition, although many annihilationists are heretical because of their other doctrines. For instance, several major cults are annihilationists.
That is good to know :) Some of whom you call the annihilationist cults deny the Deity of Christ. I do not. I affirm the Deity of Jesus Christ. And there are those who will accuse others of not believing the Bible because understanding of what is being taught varies. Or claim you are in a cult because you do not believe what they believe on every single point. Do you know anyone with whom you agree on every single point? There are those like you who used to believe it, and now pretend they have no idea why anybody would after saying eternal conscious torment is an unfortunate Catholic doctrine that belongs in the trash bin.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#10
By the way, I don't consider annihilationists to be heretical by definition, although many annihilationists are heretical because of their other doctrines. For instance, several major cults are annihilationists.
It is significant that it is primarily the cults which are annihilationists. And because of their other heterodox doctrines, they are also heretical.

It is also interesting to note that it was during the 19th century that many of these cults came into existence.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#11
Additionally, it is plain to see that words like death, destruction, and perishing can be viewed in ways other than the annihilationist is viewing them. For example, Ephesians 2 describes the state of the man in Adam, who is not born-again. The first verses of the chapter describe him as being dead, because he is spiritually separated from God, and not fulfilling his intended purpose as a result.
Adam was never told he would be tortured forever after if he disobeyed God and ate from the forbidden tree. He was told he would die. Clearly death had different meanings which are contingent upon context. Two meanings are made clear in Scripture. One you have accurately described as the death we are all born into in Adam, being spiritually dead to God, which is what Adam became when he disobeyed. He did not die physically on that day, for he lived many years afterwards, to the ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5). Being born again of the spirit is required to attain to life ever after.
Anyways, I believe the fundamental problem with annihilationists is their hermeneutic. They are viewing the type (physical destruction and annihilationism) as being the reality. They are reading the OT forward into the NT, instead of using the lense of the NT to evaluate the OT.
The NT plainly states time and time again in a multitude of ways that the wicked will perish. Moreover, Jesus warned us to fear Him Who could destroy both body and soul in hell. Was saying both could be destroyed an idle threat? I don't think so.



Do you believe, then, that the created soul of man is immortal?
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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#12
Why do you call total destruction "sleep"? Seems like a logical fallacy... and a deliberate misnomer to cloud the issue.
because that is what annihilationists teach. they teach you cease to exist. you dont know whats going on. which means like going to sleep or dying in the flesh.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#13
because that is what annihilationists teach. they teach you cease to exist. you dont know whats going on. which means like going to sleep or dying in the flesh.
No, you are confusing two different teachings, and calling them one. Sleep is not equated with the second death. It seems ridiculous to claim anyone teaches that the total destruction of body and soul means you are merely sleeping.
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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#14
It is significant that it is primarily the cults which are annihilationists. And because of their other heterodox doctrines, they are also heretical.

It is also interesting to note that it was during the 19th century that many of these cults came into existence.
people started getting soft in 19th century it looks like. they cant take the truth so they make traditions of men to sugarcoat God and invent their own way.
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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#15
No, you are confusing two different teachings, and calling them one. Sleep is not equated with the second death. It seems ridiculous to claim anyone teaches that the total destruction of body and soul means you are merely sleeping.
tell me then what happens at the second death. those people die, right? and then you dont exist just like you were before you were born.... its a great comparison no confusion here.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
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#16
tell me then what happens at the second death. those people die, right? and then you dont exist just like you were before you were born.... its a great comparison no confusion here.
You are calling the second death sleep. To do so shows your confusion. Total destruction is not sleep.
 

Magenta

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#18
lets call it whatever you watn to call it dear

you are not conscious, yes?
How could someone who does not exist be conscious? Yet you do not see your confusion?

The second death is never referred to as sleep... except by confused people... or those who wish to confuse the issue.
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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#20
How could someone who does not exist be conscious? Yet you do not see your confusion?

The second death is never referred to as sleep... except by confused people... or those who wish to confuse the issue.
okay thats it you are going on about the same thing like an emotional woman riding on a pink unicorn. its over im not gonna discuss on this level.

i already said you can call it whatever you want. you already answered the question which was: no. they do not exist.

therefore, its just like it was before i was born i did not exist. oh and you didnt find eternal torment? try revelation 14:11.

and thats it there is no debate no controversy its there. bible says it, i believe it, that settles it.