THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb
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You can say they are literal men when no literal man in the recorded history of man has every been a fire breathing man.
So, if you hear of a fire breathing man, the first instinct should be "symbolic." This is especially true when every symbol is found and explained in other passages.
Please consider the context. The entire passages is filled with spiritual symbolism. Since it is, the witnesses are symbolic too. Here are symbolic phrases:
a reed like a measuring rod
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands
fire proceeds from their mouth
have power to shut heaven
no rain falls in the days of their prophecy
power over waters to turn them to blood
strike the earth with all plagues
the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit
make war against them, overcome them, and kill them
spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt
not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
So, if you hear of a fire breathing man, the first instinct should be "symbolic." This is especially true when every symbol is found and explained in other passages.Please consider the context. The entire passages is filled with spiritual symbolism. Since it is, the witnesses are symbolic too. Here are symbolic phrases:
a reed like a measuring rod
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands
fire proceeds from their mouth
have power to shut heaven
no rain falls in the days of their prophecy
power over waters to turn them to blood
strike the earth with all plagues
the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit
make war against them, overcome them, and kill them
spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt
not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
Good stuff Marc....
IMHO the Rapture occurs when God returns. I believe He pours out His wrath just prior to His return. His wrath is targeted at those who have been persecuting and killing His people. If you study the Bowls of Wrath closely, you will see that specific people/targets are named. You also see clear revenge as a theme to the wrath. You also see warnings in Chapter 18 for His people to get out of "Babylon" so that they won't share in the punishment. So, God's People will be on earth and if they listen and know Revelation, they will know when to leave and where to leave.
I see us in the midst of the 4th seal. Islam is the Green Horse. Islam rules over 1/4 of the world. Islam kills by all the means mentioned. IMHO, Islam is just getting started. I think you will see coordinated attacks against churches all over the globe where gunmen will enter churches and start blasting. Fear will grip Christians around the world and many will stay away from Church after this, those not killed.
Agreed 1000%.
I have to see a man breath fire outside of a magic show before I can accept them as literal. Too much symbolism which match Israel and the Church right down to this symbol of Israel below. You see the two olive trees and the lampstand.
I think that's what I said. Correct. No example of any man doing this.
This symbol is explained here.
Jeremiah 5:14
Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.
The Word of God is like Fire in the Mouth of the of one uttering the Word. The Words convict the sinner and none can stand up to the Word of God. The days of this are coming to an end as the power of the church is already starting to wane and the wicked have strongholds everywhere. Not even in the USA are we free from persecution anymore.
If you notice, the "BEAST from the BOTTOMLESS PIT" does three things.
1st) He wages war (war isn't waged against two people)
2nd) He overcomes (do you overcome two people or do you just kill them?)
3rd) He kills them (Kill is Kill) but does anyone think a literal Beast is going to crawl out of a pit and slay two dudes in front of the whole world on CNN or Fox News? If that happens, that's it. I'm going to check into an insane asylum (much to the joy of many of you)
We see this theme repeated. First, the descriptions of the demise of the two witnesses from Rev 11 followed by descriptions of Satan overcoming saints, etc.
Rev 11: the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 12: [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13: [SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.
Dan 7: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...
IMHO the Rapture occurs when God returns. I believe He pours out His wrath just prior to His return. His wrath is targeted at those who have been persecuting and killing His people. If you study the Bowls of Wrath closely, you will see that specific people/targets are named. You also see clear revenge as a theme to the wrath. You also see warnings in Chapter 18 for His people to get out of "Babylon" so that they won't share in the punishment. So, God's People will be on earth and if they listen and know Revelation, they will know when to leave and where to leave.
I see us in the midst of the 4th seal. Islam is the Green Horse. Islam rules over 1/4 of the world. Islam kills by all the means mentioned. IMHO, Islam is just getting started. I think you will see coordinated attacks against churches all over the globe where gunmen will enter churches and start blasting. Fear will grip Christians around the world and many will stay away from Church after this, those not killed.
Agreed 1000%.
I have to see a man breath fire outside of a magic show before I can accept them as literal. Too much symbolism which match Israel and the Church right down to this symbol of Israel below. You see the two olive trees and the lampstand.
I think that's what I said. Correct. No example of any man doing this.
This symbol is explained here.
Jeremiah 5:14
Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.
The Word of God is like Fire in the Mouth of the of one uttering the Word. The Words convict the sinner and none can stand up to the Word of God. The days of this are coming to an end as the power of the church is already starting to wane and the wicked have strongholds everywhere. Not even in the USA are we free from persecution anymore.
If you notice, the "BEAST from the BOTTOMLESS PIT" does three things.
1st) He wages war (war isn't waged against two people)
2nd) He overcomes (do you overcome two people or do you just kill them?)
3rd) He kills them (Kill is Kill) but does anyone think a literal Beast is going to crawl out of a pit and slay two dudes in front of the whole world on CNN or Fox News? If that happens, that's it. I'm going to check into an insane asylum (much to the joy of many of you)
We see this theme repeated. First, the descriptions of the demise of the two witnesses from Rev 11 followed by descriptions of Satan overcoming saints, etc.
Rev 11: the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 12: [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13: [SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.
Dan 7: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...
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Dcon talks about many of the pretrib arguments in his book you can find here:
https://christianchat.com/blogs/book-on-the-2nd-coming-of-christ.172326/#post-3728744
why is it wrong in your opinion?
https://christianchat.com/blogs/book-on-the-2nd-coming-of-christ.172326/#post-3728744
why is it wrong in your opinion?
quote feature doesnt work but this is what vco said:
thats true actually.
when Jesus says "dont turn back and dont go pick up anything from your house" talking about His coming that can be what you said coming as king of kings.
but what st.paul says in the blink of an eye, if it happens that quick you dont have time to even think about a house or turning back.
what do you say about it dcon?
thats true actually.
when Jesus says "dont turn back and dont go pick up anything from your house" talking about His coming that can be what you said coming as king of kings.
but what st.paul says in the blink of an eye, if it happens that quick you dont have time to even think about a house or turning back.
what do you say about it dcon?
Not interested. This is a Settled Subject in my Heart.
More info from a Jewish Christian site can be found:
http://messianicfellowship.50webs.com/wedding.html
More info from a Jewish Christian site can be found:
http://messianicfellowship.50webs.com/wedding.html
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It is same with all Post Tribulation believers, and also the Same with Tongues believers, DEBATING THEM WILL ONLY CAUSE AN ARGUMENT.
So I choose Not to debate those two issues. WHY?
Colossians 2:4 (NASB)
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.
Once the Holy Spirit has convinced me HE GAVE ME THE TRUTH, why would I even want to read an apposing argument.
Most Baptists and Most Evangelical Theologians TEACH a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and so do most Messianic Believers too.
I consider myself to be a very Conservative Evangelical, that was discipled by the best.
Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - http://www.gty.org/ sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
Dr. Adrian Rogers - http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/
Dr. Charles Stanley - http://www.intouch.org/
Dr. Richard Lee - http://www.firstredeemer.org/
Dr. Zola Levitt - http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/118 - some free - videos
Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
Dr. Chuck Swindoll - http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/insight-for-living/
Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/
Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - http://www.dts.edu/read/dr-dwight-pentecost-dies-age-99/
As well as the Pastors of Churches that I attended; Pastor Neil Berry and Pastor Gordan Broadbent especially.
All of them TAUGHT a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. And you want me to consider THEM WRONG, and look at an apposing view?
Not going to happen, because on top of it all, the Holy Spirit has convinced me with THE JOY OF ANTICIPATING "THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH!" I KEEP READY FOR MY BRIDEGROOM! I mean, I get excited when I am teaching the TRUTH, and This Subject is DEFINITELY THE TRUTH, and the HOLY SPIRIT PUTS JOY IN MY HEART.
Ephesians 5:6 (HCSB)
6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient because of these things.
1 Timothy 6:20 (NASB)
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"—
I must apologize, I mistakenly assumed Dr. Walter Martin was Pre-Trib, and he is actually Post Trib, like DC is. I really do not see why some people get so exercised about why some of us has been convinced of the Pre-Trib position. I believe it is ABSOLUTELY TRUE, so I KEEP READY, and what if HE does not come when expected, I STILL KEEP READY, because NO ONE KNOWS THE HOUR OR THE DAY. But I have been called a False Teacher so many times in the PAST, I couldn't even count them. Do you know what the most convincing verse, OTHER THAN THE JOY HE GIVES ME TO TEACH IT, actually is:
Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.
So why did He PERSONALLY tell that to Christians nearly 2000 years ago, if there was no such thing as PRE-Tribulation ? ? ?
One more THOUGHT, It says ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS, because ONLY HE gets to tell the Son when the New Dwelling Place is finished. So it very well could be PRE-TRIBULATION.
Does it bother me that DC believes differently on this subject than me ? ? ? Not in the Least, I believe the Holy Spirit will put it on the HEARTS to KEEP READY for the Bridegroom. I believe that JESUS IS FOLLOWING the Traditional Jewish Wedding Practices. Do you know HOW MANY wedding Ceremonies the Jewish couple must go through in a Traditional Jewish Wedding. One in the Grooms Father's House, and later on at the Brides Father's House or another designated location, for the relatives of the BRIDE, that could not make it to the Groom's Father's House for whatever reason for the First Ceremony. In Both CEREMONIES the Wedding Vows are deliberately repeated.
Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.
So why did He PERSONALLY tell that to Christians nearly 2000 years ago, if there was no such thing as PRE-Tribulation ? ? ?
One more THOUGHT, It says ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS, because ONLY HE gets to tell the Son when the New Dwelling Place is finished. So it very well could be PRE-TRIBULATION.
Does it bother me that DC believes differently on this subject than me ? ? ? Not in the Least, I believe the Holy Spirit will put it on the HEARTS to KEEP READY for the Bridegroom. I believe that JESUS IS FOLLOWING the Traditional Jewish Wedding Practices. Do you know HOW MANY wedding Ceremonies the Jewish couple must go through in a Traditional Jewish Wedding. One in the Grooms Father's House, and later on at the Brides Father's House or another designated location, for the relatives of the BRIDE, that could not make it to the Groom's Father's House for whatever reason for the First Ceremony. In Both CEREMONIES the Wedding Vows are deliberately repeated.
I skimmed through it.
He is presenting a typical partial bible study with the spin of either a post or mid trib rapture.
Leaves out EVERY VERSE (well as far as i can tell) that depicts and points to a pretrib rapture.
The overlapping verses ,that both sides agree on are just obvious second coming verses. They work for any position.
But he should present all the evidence.
Not what his beliefs dictate.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
What post/mid treatise or adherent includes this?
It is like a hamburger with no meat.
His book is all about what he thinks concerning a trib/wrath centered examination.
His book is a study with a preconcieved notion.
He is presenting a typical partial bible study with the spin of either a post or mid trib rapture.
Leaves out EVERY VERSE (well as far as i can tell) that depicts and points to a pretrib rapture.
The overlapping verses ,that both sides agree on are just obvious second coming verses. They work for any position.
But he should present all the evidence.
Not what his beliefs dictate.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
What post/mid treatise or adherent includes this?
It is like a hamburger with no meat.
His book is all about what he thinks concerning a trib/wrath centered examination.
His book is a study with a preconcieved notion.
can you share a few of these verses? would be a first. actually could anyone share any pre-trib rapture verses? i (and most in church history) find the number of 0.
unlike all the pretrib books right? impartial and not looking for pretrib rapture on every corner possible since its not there plainly so its all about deducing and bouncing all over the bible.
the hypocrisy of the pretrib preachers is making me ill almost. they quote isaiah 26:10 as proof for pretrib rapture. desperately clinging to any and everything. then when you quote something they say "thats old testament" or "thats for the jews. thats talking to israel". unlike isaiah 26:10 right?
unlike all the pretrib books right? impartial and not looking for pretrib rapture on every corner possible since its not there plainly so its all about deducing and bouncing all over the bible.
the hypocrisy of the pretrib preachers is making me ill almost. they quote isaiah 26:10 as proof for pretrib rapture. desperately clinging to any and everything. then when you quote something they say "thats old testament" or "thats for the jews. thats talking to israel". unlike isaiah 26:10 right?
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