The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

First of all, thank you for your honesty. It is refreshing to see when someone understands. But I would disagree with you in regards to the woman representing Mary.

To answer your question, one of the main reasons why the man child is representing the 144,000, is because Jesus does not fit the criteria of being the man child. Satan is waiting to devour/kill the child as soon as it is born, but before he can do that the man child is caught up to God and His throne. In opposition, Jesus was killed, buried, resurrected and later ascended to God's right hand. That the male child is caught up to God before the dragon/Satan can kill him, does not match the events which took place with Jesus.

Regarding the 144,000, in Rev.14:4 it states that, "These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins." By saying that these 144,000 did not defile themselves with woman, it infers that they are all males, ergo, male child. The phrase "Male Child" is a collective name representing the 144,000, who will be caught up to God's throne before Satan can devour them and which will take place after the 7th trumpet is sounded.

Actually, besides Christ, there are two other groups that scripture states will rule with a rod of iron, as listed below:

The Lord = And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.

The church = (The letter to Thyatira) And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star."

The Male Child/144,000 = And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.

And though it does not use the phrase "rod of iron," Rev.20:4-6 states that the great tribulation saints who are resurrected will also rule with Christ during the millennial kingdom:

"And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. "

"The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

I hope this information is beneficial[/QUOTE]

Sure thing bossssss!

I had to look who I responded to......yeah....check his gospel and get back to me......

Good day Jim. Here is the scripture:

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

According to the scripture above, the generation that Jesus is speaking about, is the one where those signs take place. The signs and the generation in question are directly linked together. Therefore, in order for the generation that the Lord was speaking of, those signs must be present, which would include the seven year agreement with Israel and the setting up of the abomination which Jesus mentions in Matt.24:15. That said, since neither of those events have taken place, then the generation that Jesus was speaking of was not the generation that He was living in.

Jesus is not going to give all of those signs and then tell us that the end age is going to take place in that generation. In that case you would not need to watch for the signs because, depending on what part of the generation they were in, it would be relatively short.

Also, regarding "the end of the age" this is not marked by the destruction of the temple, but is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. Though the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was terrible, it pales in comparison to that time of great tribulation such as the word has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to equaled again. And that if those days had not been shortened, no one on the earth would survive. The destruction of 70 AD does not match this description.

I would also add that, both Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.1:7, state that all of the peoples of the earth will see the Lord arriving on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory. At that same time, He will send out His angels to gather the righteous from the four corners of the earth. None of these events have taken place, for it had, all human government would have been dismantled and the millennial kingdom would have begun, which means that we would currently be living in the eternal state, which we are not.

The next Biblical event to take place will be the gathering of the church, followed by the revealing to the antichrist and the beginning of the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring. After the 7th bowl is poured out, Jesus will then return to the earth to end the age and establish the millennial kingdom.

When the ruler, that antichrist is revealed, he will establish his seven year agreement with Israel, allowing them to build their long awaited temple. It is this temple that the abomination will set up in.

Mary is not ushered into a place of safety with a flood chasing her.
Israel is ushered away because the ac is beheading all who do not worship him (unless those days be shortened,no flesh shall be saved).
The 144k are in heaven by rev 14.
They are either martyed or raptured.
Right after that Jesus on a cloud with a sickle harvests the main body of remnant jews (previously ushered away from the ac)

Agreed!

The only thing that I would add is that, since I believe that the male child is a collective name representing the 144,000, then when the male child is caught up to God and His throne, that is where the 144,000 are caught up, which would be in the middle of the seven years.

You are correct KJV1611, Israel is not clothed with the sun, but the woman who figuratively represents Israel is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars.

Let me see if I can explain it this way. In Revelation 17 we are introduced to a beast with seven heads and ten horns. In that same chapter John is told by the angel that the seven heads are symbolic representing seven hills/mountains that the woman sits on. Then the angel says that the seven heads also represent seven kings. Once again, the angel then tells John that the woman is symbolic representing the great city that rules over the kings of the earth, which at that time was Rome.

Seven heads = Seven Mountains/Hills upon which the woman sits

Seven heads = Seven kings

The Woman who rides the beast = The great city that rules over the kings of the earth

Now, do the same thing with the woman in Revelation 12:

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a grown of twelve stars

Jacob = Sun

Wives = Moon

Twelve stars = twelve tribes of Israel

(For a description of who the symbols represent, see Genesis 37:9-10)

Now, since the woman is described with the sun, moon and stars, all together the woman represents Israel.

Stop just using only one of the symbols, for All three symbols are necessary for identifying who the woman is.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/17.htm And see I take him as saying the beast that John saw "was and is not (Revelation 17:8) and so it is in the pit at that time. And the woman (Revelation 17:18) is who has kingship over the kings of the earth(not the beast that was, was not yet is).

Well, the beast represents multiple things:

1). Satan as the dragon with seven heads, ten horns and seven crowns

2). The last day kingdom having ten toes made of partly iron and baked clay

3). The angel of the Abyss, also called the beast who is released at the 5th trumpet 1st woe.

The meaning of the beast regarding the Abyss is as follows:

Once was = He once was out in the world and not in the Abyss

Now is not = He is currently not in the world but is in the Abyss

And yet will come = At some point in the future he will come back out of the Abyss

I believe that this angel/beast is going to come out of the Abyss and will be the power behind the antichrist.

The seven heads have two symbolic meanings. One is the seven kings and the other is seven hills.

The ten horns represent those future ten kings that are appointed as kings in a short period of time along with the beast.

I'm not preterist lol, but if I was I jump right on the devil(Satan) being bound in the pit at present because of what you just said(I think you misspoke though I know your disp.,lol). The fact is sort of like you often say of studying this for 40-45 years I can say that twice at 85. But this is a complex issue and I'll not say that because,and i admit to you even though my mother took me to Church the day I was born I know after 85 years that some things sill leave me scratching my head,lol.

That said though I think there's two different women one's a harlot the others not. The one in Rev.12 isn't the harlot and the one in Rev. 17 is the harlot and I would not mix the two's symbols,lol. I say that lightly though because I notice that Satan does as it seems try to act and look just as close to God as he can mimic. I think that that is for the most part the deception in that most will completely think and believe that they are on Gods side and correct when in fact they have followed Satan and been deceived.

Any way though I don't want you to think I disrespect you in any manner(I don't) I am post trib. pre wrath,pre mill. ect. (i think you knew that,but if not,lol) but not like some,,more close to 150ad'ish mill. early Church millennial day thinking(pretty much outside the common camps),lol.... So if I say somethings that seem odd I don't mean them in disrespect at all it's just where I see things at 85 years.

Let's see...

"45 years of study" => "absolutely no chance whatsoever of being wrong about anything"

What if -- just, what if -- you have been taught [some] error - and - in such a way that causes you to form a mindset that will only allow you to reinforce the error because you are not willing to let go of it - or even "suspend" it long enough to consider anything other than that which you have "learned" - that you believe cannot possibly contain any error whatsoever...?

"Okay - we'll see how that goes..."

seven last plagues = seven last plagues

Satan is the author of confusion - and, the method he uses is called Wisdom of Men.

The events described in the Olivet Discourse are not sequential.

The Olivet Discourse covers a greater span of time than you realize. And, some of it is past history.

I believe this is talking about the span of time from 538 A.D. until 1798 A.D. -- exactly 1260 years -- during which the Holy Roman Empire "ruled" the earth. They tortured and killed the saints for hundreds of years.

These are the saints "under the altar" (Revelation 6:9) -- who are told that they must wait "until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Revelation 6:11) -- which are the saints who are beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

I do not see the worst of times having occurred anytime between 538 AD and 1798 AD. WWII was worse than any point back then.

Look man I understand you are the "pre-trib" warrior here, I know you have all the huge charts, timelines, and events memorized and scriptures that "prove" your view, and now we are just watching the world go to hell waiting for the rapture and escape. I understand everyone you know growing up that taught you (maybe, this is an assumption not knowing you well, so I reserve the right to be wrong about this), respected leaders of huge churches have drilled this into our heads, and believing it I am not meaning in a deceptive way, but do so until this is the total focus of your ministry.

I understand that as much as I understand that sitting here and debating it all day long would just waste time and keep two saints from being out here kingdom building. I understand what you believe. Everybody here, that's been here more than a week knows what you believe on this subject because it's all you ever talk about. Also praise God Hallelujah you are serving the King, please, please, please, know that just because I disagree with you is not in any way an attack on your salvation status, or on you as a person. I actually love your love for out King, Jesus. It is very clear and I would never in any way want you to think I'm tearing at that at all. I'm not. I want to make clear that I am not insulting here, I am by no means saying anyone is not saved, or can't evangelize or anything like that, please understand that.

I am just trying to point out a HUGE difference in perspective these two view bring. In one we are helpless sheep in a world run by satan, we are just waiting, biding our time, watching the enemy destroy everything, and trying to point as many to Jesus before He comes bringing His kingdom, (in a way that we could point to and say "there is His Kingdom", exactly like He told us it wouldn't be BTW", and kind of the same way the Jews that rejected Him were thinking it would come, and still do to this day)

And one side thinks that Our King already has all victory and is seated in heaven, on His throne at the right hand of God with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sat down until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. Holla-boo-ya!!!

He told us the kingdom of God was not of this earth, it is of the Spirit, and is what we are reborn into. We are to therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it's all going under Him brother, that He has all victory NOW, and calls everyone to Himself. That's how I see it anyway, that He is has conquered everything already, and it's now being brought under Him. We are to go make disciples of everyone. Call it "pie in the sky", but I call it hope, and I can give you the same scriptures you use to back your view up and tell you how you've got it wrong the back up my view. See? Pointless. But what I don't feel is pointless and find most important is proclaiming the power of Jesus our King to change everything. I am going to speak His power to overcome ALL darkness in this world, rather than hunker down and wait to be fly out of our socks & shoes.

Can you at least see wear I'm coming from? Since He has opened my eyes to this I have been on fire everywhere I go. Like NEVER before, so I'm following Him. He has me out in the streets doing bible studies and proclaiming His word right here in the office watching His power bring a person to tears right in front of me, and not for the first time. Brother Jesus has already done it and we are to proclaim His victory NOW, not later sometime. You make this stuff so complicated you forget that Jesus was talking to the people He was addressing, just like Paul, James, John, Peter, and the other writers were writing to the people they were addressed to. Yes His word is for all people for all time, but we can't forget full context. We can't just take stuff and insert ourselves in it the way is being done here. It's faulty thinking strait up, but I truly hope you (and this does not mean a distant you in a future generation) understand that it's in love I say these things because He leads me to do the same thing.

Galatians 5:16 KJV
[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

See, the thing about that [the bold ^ ] is that you are writing to an "individual [you]," so of course there is only one person/individual, named Ahwatukee [member of this forum], and in this case, he is only present in one particular spans of [his own] lifetime.

But this is not what is being expressed in the Olivet Discourse, which makes use of the "proleptic 'you'" (meaning, basically, "all those in the future, of the same category"); and this would be more like, say, if the state of California, when it became an official state in 1850, wrote a document for its citizens stating something about "the earthquake certain to come" and instructing/informing "you [y'all--whoever will be in existence as a citizen of the state of CA at the time "she' gettin' ready to BLOW"] of what will transpire and any particular info they will need to be apprised of in order to deal with it effectively (etc), this is more like what the "you" is representing here (those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised!)... The thing written to "Californians" would not be applicable to Michiganders. (Not that I'm making the point that the things in the Olivet Discourse will only affect one LOCATION, say, Israel, mind you... I'm just trying to offer an example of the usage of the "proleptic 'you'" so you can see what I mean regarding the Olivet Discourse.)

Paul also makes use of the "proleptic 'you'" with regard to "the Church which is His body" (that is, wherever he is speaking with regard to it [even if not "named" such, in any given passage]), but rarely does one say, he was only speaking to those in the churches that his letters actually were sent to... and not to US some nearly 2000-yrs later! (Not.)

The positioning of verse 32 (in Luke 21 of the Olivet Discourse) and its wording of "TILL ALL be fulfilled," NECESSARILY *includes* the events JUST [previously] MENTIONED in v.24, INCLUDING "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" (in the section of the Olivet Discourse covering the 70ad events [vv.12-24a], which must take place "BEFORE ALL these [the beginning of birth pangs (in vv.8-11)]" per v.12).

I'm sorry, no matter now fancy you dress it up, or how you bend words meanings until they mean what you want them to, but you just can't tell me that Jesus answering the question of "when will these things take place?", with "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" Means "Falsely I don't tell you, these things will not happen to you at all, they will happen to people FAR into the future."

You just aren't convincing me with what Californians said in modern times. Sorry it just doesn't. I just read it for what it says. Plain. I appreciate the comment just the same, but I just can't see the PTR in the text at all. Not with the best arguments I've heard so far.

👀1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV
[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

^ [to Jimbone] Recall that Acts 3 has Peter telling "ye men of Israel" (v.12) that Jesus was... "raise up UNTO YOU [that is, in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death]"... as "A PROPHET… unto you of your brethren [like unto me/Moses]"... and it says, "Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say UNTO YOU" (v.22) and then in verse 26, it says, "UNTO YOU *FIRST* God, having raised up [that is, in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death] His Servant Jesus, SENT Him to BLESS YOU, in turning every one of you from his iniquities."


See also:

[quoting]

"But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof, by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken," but till all be fulfilled. Now, He had introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing, and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new [future] generation, the generation [yet] to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."

--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary

[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine]