Pentecostals and others claiming "second experiences"

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UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

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I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years.

The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time.

Then, all of a sudden, they have this "second experience" where they go from being a mediocre Christian to a super-duper Christian, sometimes accompanied by alleged spiritual gifts. Many times, the claimant allegedly speaks in tongues as proof of their special empowerment.

The view of "second experiences" is often inferred from the text of the book of Acts. My position would be that the individual is viewing Acts as the normative, rather than a narrative or description of a transitional period of time.

I recommend Dwight Pentecost's book called New Wine: A Study of Transition in the Book of Acts in regards to this view. He describes how the true believers were being transitioned from Israel to the people of God, the election was being transitioned from Jews to Gentiles, and the authority was passing from the priests to the apostles of the Church.

Here's the possibilities I can see in this regard:

1. The person was not saved during their first experience, and the second experience, the person was actually regenerated.
2. The person was saved during their first experience, but grew in their relationship with God and experienced a deeper level of relationship
3. The person is not saved, and is engaging in self-deception

My guess is that there are individuals in all of those categories.

I am not very open minded about "speaking in tongues", though....it seems like those making the claim often begin with someone instructing them how to "speak in tongues". I don't see anyone in Acts who had to be taught to engage in "speaking in tongues". However, there are so many youtube videos teaching how to "speak in tongues". Asking someone how they came to "speak in tongues" is informative..did they learn it from someone else? Did someone exert psychological pressure to get them to speak in tongues? Answers to these questions are instructive.

Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered. I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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UnitedWithChrist said:
Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered. I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.
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Agreed. (y)
 
L

Locoponydirtman

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#3
#3
Your trying to stir up a hornet's nest.


This place is full of charismatic folks.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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#4
#4
I am not familiar with any Bible passages that describe what you are describing

I am also not familiar with a two tier system such as you describe

it seems you have some sort of vague conception of what you are trying to attribute to Pentecostals and or Charasmatics but with sketchy success

well actually, if it were not for the fact you actually have inserted the names 'Pentecostal' and 'Charasmatic' into your op, I would not have a clue what it is you are seemingly indicating opposition to

Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered. I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.
Click to expand...
well that's good then because Jesus has this habit of treating all believers the same

however, the difference that some think they see is not actually on the part of Jesus

it is actually on the part of the believers who persue a deeper walk with God and do not cut out verses from scripture that cessationists are in disagreement with

I would be interested in knowing why, you have started a thread opposed to the biblical experience of baptism in the Holy Spirit

this is not a two tier system. the baptism in the Holy Spirit is actually available to every believer

however, as salvation itself, God does not force Himself upon those who do not want what He offers

further, most cessationists base their disregard for further teaching on the gifts of the Spirit with reference to the book of Acts

that is almost like leaving people in Genesis with the promise of a Savior, but not in anyone's lifetime

Paul has instructions for the Corinthians, who were badly needing instruction, that is also beneficial for us today and in fact, many churches today could use that correctional instruction

I will say again though, without intending insult, your op is mistaken in it's view of what normative Christianity was a couple of millenia ago and certainly what God intended it to be in the 21st C
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#5
#5
However, there are so many youtube videos teaching how to "speak in tongues
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this should be addressed as a separate issue

youtube, while it can be entertaining, is not a study guide and frankly I do not agree with teaching people to speak in tongues per se

however, people do need to be taught about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and in a sound and biblical manner

youtube is also a great resource for cessationists and has been well used in this forum for that very purpose

in other words, youtube benefits those who either do not know how to study the multitude of available study material or are just too used to using social media as their benefactor for all things anyone wants to know at any time in this present day and age
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

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#6
Aug 12, 2019
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7seasrekeyed said:
I am not familiar with any Bible passages that describe what you are describing

I am also not familiar with a two tier system such as you describe

it seems you have some sort of vague conception of what you are trying to attribute to Pentecostals and or Charasmatics but with sketchy success

well actually, if it were not for the fact you actually have inserted the names 'Pentecostal' and 'Charasmatic' into your op, I would not have a clue what it is you are seemingly indicating opposition to



well that's good then because Jesus has this habit of treating all believers the same

however, the difference that some think they see is not actually on the part of Jesus

it is actually on the part of the believers who persue a deeper walk with God and do not cut out verses from scripture that cessationists are in disagreement with

I would be interested in knowing why, you have started a thread opposed to the biblical experience of baptism in the Holy Spirit

this is not a two tier system. the baptism in the Holy Spirit is actually available to every believer

however, as salvation itself, God does not force Himself upon those who do not want what He offers

further, most cessationists base their disregard for further teaching on the gifts of the Spirit with reference to the book of Acts

that is almost like leaving people in Genesis with the promise of a Savior, but not in anyone's lifetime

Paul has instructions for the Corinthians, who were badly needing instruction, that is also beneficial for us today and in fact, many churches today could use that correctional instruction

I will say again though, without intending insult, your op is mistaken in it's view of what normative Christianity was a couple of millenia ago and certainly what God intended it to be in the 21st C
Click to expand...
I believe that regeneration is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and there is no second experience. Pentecostals and others claim that there is a second experience that needs to occur. I reject all alleged second experiences.

Maybe you are unfamiliar with the claim. Amongst charismatics some declare themselves as “spirit-filled” inferring that they are on a different level spiritually than those who haven’t experienced this.
 
M

MattforJesus

Banned
#8
Apr 15, 2017
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#8
UnitedWithChrist said:
I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years.

The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time.

Then, all of a sudden, they have this "second experience" where they go from being a mediocre Christian to a super-duper Christian, sometimes accompanied by alleged spiritual gifts. Many times, the claimant allegedly speaks in tongues as proof of their special empowerment.

The view of "second experiences" is often inferred from the text of the book of Acts. My position would be that the individual is viewing Acts as the normative, rather than a narrative or description of a transitional period of time.

I recommend Dwight Pentecost's book called New Wine: A Study of Transition in the Book of Acts in regards to this view. He describes how the true believers were being transitioned from Israel to the people of God, the election was being transitioned from Jews to Gentiles, and the authority was passing from the priests to the apostles of the Church.

Here's the possibilities I can see in this regard:

1. The person was not saved during their first experience, and the second experience, the person was actually regenerated.
2. The person was saved during their first experience, but grew in their relationship with God and experienced a deeper level of relationship
3. The person is not saved, and is engaging in self-deception

My guess is that there are individuals in all of those categories.

I am not very open minded about "speaking in tongues", though....it seems like those making the claim often begin with someone instructing them how to "speak in tongues". I don't see anyone in Acts who had to be taught to engage in "speaking in tongues". However, there are so many youtube videos teaching how to "speak in tongues". Asking someone how they came to "speak in tongues" is informative..did they learn it from someone else? Did someone exert psychological pressure to get them to speak in tongues? Answers to these questions are instructive.

Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered. I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.
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I never heard of this second experience that would empower a person to be greater than the standard repent of your sins, and receive the Spirit.

Does it stem from arrogance for them to think they are above the common Christian.

Like many people that say they are a prophet, or trying to act as if they are more spiritual than another based on they are special, or it appears they want to think like that.

There is a man William Tapley on youtube with many videos that says he is the 3rd eagle, angel, of the apocalypse, and the co-prophet of the end time.

I wonder why they believe what they do, and why they think they are special above other people.

Paul even said he is the least of the least of the saints, and he had many revelations from God.

And the Bible says what makes you to differ from another.

We have faith in Christ, confess Christ, repent of our sins, and we shall receive the Spirit, and we get whatever the Spirit has to offer and it is for every person the same.

There is no second experience to empower a person that is above other people that do not experience the second one.

Once you receive the Spirit after you confess Christ, and repent of your sins, that is it for the Spirit is working in your life full force, and working as much as you allow the Spirit to work in your life, and you are saved to the full, and spiritually empowered without a second experience to boost you even more.

If a person is boosted in spirituality it is not a second experience but the Spirit working more in their life from the first experience, for the Bible says we grow in Christ.

Once you receive the Spirit you are spiritual, and all your sins are forgiven.

I do not understand a second experience only we grow in Christ, but once we are saved initially all our sins are forgiven, and wiped from our record, and we are led of the Spirit.

Why would we need a second experience when it is the first experience only we grew in Christ, and became more Christlike.

It cannot be in wisdom for God said a person that asks for wisdom He gives to all people liberally, nothing wavering, so there is no superduper there for it is for all the saints equally that God does not hold back wisdom from them.

It cannot be according to our sins for once we repent of our sins, and confess Christ all our sins are forgiven right there and then with nothing on our record to have to be dealt with again, or to fall short.

And once we receive the Spirit it is all available to us at that time not a second experience.

I do not know anything about it, but like I said I do not understand a second experience so I do not know all what to say about it.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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#9
#9
UnitedWithChrist said:
I believe that regeneration is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and there is no second experience. Pentecostals and others claim that there is a second experience that needs to occur. I reject all alleged second experiences.

Maybe you are unfamiliar with the claim. Amongst charismatics some declare themselves as “spirit-filled” inferring that they are on a different level spiritually than those who haven’t experienced this.
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I am Spirit filled myself yet do not have a Pentecostal nor a Charasmatic background

I am very familiar, actually, and both experientially and biblically understand the baptism in the Holy Spirit as well as those who teach against it

you are wrong in your assertions that those who who are biblically sound with regards to the baptism in the Holy Spirit believe that we are either superior or better or any other misused connotation to describe, again, what God offers to all believers

you go ahead and reject whatever you want

many reject salvation but that does not mean no salvation exists

and I am really not trying to be insulting....but you do not seem to have a very good understanding of what it is you are determined that myself or any other poster here, should understand as your unbelief or rejection as you call it

but, with regards to your term 'different level spiritually', surely you do not think that every believer is on the same level of understanding or the same personal walk with their Savior?

surely you do not believe that a new believer in Christ has as much knowledge and understanding as someone who has walked in the Spirit and believed for 30 plus years?

consider your wording and perhaps clarify what you want us to understand



'
 
Waggles

Waggles

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#10
UnitedWithChrist said:
Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered. I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.
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In my opinion you are blogging complete drivel and do display your complete ignorance of scripture and the full gospel
of salvation.
I also see you suffer from spiritual envy and need to deride true worship in order to validate your lacking in being Pentecostal.

Most of what you write is untruthful, ignorant and typically disparaging by those who refuse to believe the scriptures and
to submit to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Born again by water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism with the Bible evidence of praying in a new tongue.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

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#11
#11
UnitedWithChrist said:
I believe that regeneration is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and there is no second experience. Pentecostals and others claim that there is a second experience that needs to occur. I reject all alleged second experiences.

Maybe you are unfamiliar with the claim. Amongst charismatics some declare themselves as “spirit-filled” inferring that they are on a different level spiritually than those who haven’t experienced this.
Click to expand...
And when they believed Philip, proclaiming good news, the things concerning the reign of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women; and Simon also himself did believe, and, having been baptized, he was continuing with Philip, beholding also signs and mighty acts being done, he was amazed. And the apostles in Jerusalem having heard that Samaria hath received the word of God, did send unto them Peter and John, who having come down did pray concerning them, that they may receive the Holy Spirit, — for as yet he was fallen upon none of them, and only they have been baptized — to the name of the Lord Jesus; then were they laying hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:12‭-‬17 YLT1898
 
S

Scribe

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#12
#12
I cannot relate to most of what you wrote. I have been fellowshipping with Pentecostals for almost 40 years. The more common testimony is that they were born again and soon after they asked for and received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and that this gave them a noticeable difference in Empowerment to witness to the lost. They found that they had received gifts of the Spirit that allowed them to be more bold, more articulate, more prophetic in that they gave people exactly what they needed to hear from the Word that seemed to be just for them and they saw more people respond in faith to their witness than before they experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They also testify to a difference in their prayer life using the gift of tongues between themselves and God, speaking mysteries directly to God. Just like the book of Acts and Pauls instructions in 1 Cor 12-14. The second work of grace is a phrase used to explain that one can be born again and not experience this Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. It is not something you automatically get by being saved. It is received by asking for it. It requires faith. Try reading Stanely Horton, William Menzies, Roger Stronstad, just a few of the scholarly Theologians that you will find do a superior job of exegesis on this topic. You will be surprised what a sorry job most non-pentecostal scholars have done on writing on this topic once you read scholarly works from these and others like them. If you love hermeneutics and making sure that you are getting the meaning that the authors of the bible intended you will enjoy these authors. I think most people who read scholarly pentecostal authors come away with the feeling that their denominational teachers have been hiding the truth and avoiding a great majority of scriptures on the topic because they are afraid of the subject matter. Don't use the weird things you have seen others do or say to discount the validity of speaking in tongues. Only a verse by verse discussion on each scripture determining the correct interpretation based on sound rules of hermeneutics will provide the answers to the questions people have on these scriptures. I can point out some weird things I have seen in people in every denomination but I would not use them as an example to understand the scriptures.
 
Waggles

Waggles

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UnitedWithChrist said:
mongst charismatics some declare themselves as “spirit-filled” inferring that they are on a different level spiritually than those who haven’t experienced this.
Click to expand...
Well obviously that would be true ... it would seem that you have no been baptised in the Holy Spirit as you do not know of
what this means nor can you pray in tongues.
So there would be a difference between a denominational Christian and a Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christian.
Those without the Spirit walk in faith in their own strength and can only pray with their understanding;
those who have received the indwelling Holy Spirit and can pray in tongues walk in faith with power - the power of God
manifest in their lives to overcome all circumstances, and to overcome sin and our carnal selves.

Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 4:6
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? —
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Galatians 3:6
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#14
#14
I have heard the accusation by non-Pentecostals (those who adamantly reject the validity of the pentecostal doctrine) that to believe in an additional experience that empowers one to be a witness suggest that we think that a brother who does not believe as we do is "less" powerful a witness. Then based on this premise they state that we make ourselves out to be the "elite". My answer to this would be to ask them the question "Do you think one of your ministers who pray daily for the Lord to use him in ministry in the church will be more effective than the minister who does not pray at all?" If he is honest he will agree that the praying minister will most assuredly be more effective. Then would you say he is claiming to be elite? It is ludicrous to accuse those who ask for the filling of the Holy Spirit to empower them to be a witness, of claiming super Christian status. When the apostles were let out of jail after being beaten and told not to preach anymore in Jesus name, they gathered with the church and prayed for the Holy Spirit to fill them and empower them to preach boldly in His Name. The place was shaken and they preached the word boldly. That was additional experience after salvation and you would do good to follow their example all the days of your life on earth. I would doubt the salvation of anyone who thinks they are better than their Christian brother because they have experienced gifts from the Spirit of God. Gifts given by the Spirit of God are still gifts and not something we can boast about. Those who do boast or claim some special authority because of their gifts should be marked as false brethren and not to be trusted. The Spirit of God will produce humility, not showmanship.
 
Dino246

Dino246

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#15
Jun 30, 2015
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#15
UnitedWithChrist said:
I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years.

The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time.
Click to expand...
Where did you get this "basic idea"? I've been around pentecostal/charismatic churches for over 20 years and have never heard that. I don't accept it as a foundational belief for the "two-tier" experience, so so I consider moot the rest of your thesis.
 
T

TheLearner

Well-known member
#16
Jan 14, 2019
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#16
UnitedWithChrist said:
I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years.

The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time.

Then, all of a sudden, they have this "second experience" where they go from being a mediocre Christian to a super-duper Christian, sometimes accompanied by alleged spiritual gifts. Many times, the claimant allegedly speaks in tongues as proof of their special empowerment.

The view of "second experiences" is often inferred from the text of the book of Acts. My position would be that the individual is viewing Acts as the normative, rather than a narrative or description of a transitional period of time.

I recommend Dwight Pentecost's book called New Wine: A Study of Transition in the Book of Acts in regards to this view. He describes how the true believers were being transitioned from Israel to the people of God, the election was being transitioned from Jews to Gentiles, and the authority was passing from the priests to the apostles of the Church.

Here's the possibilities I can see in this regard:

1. The person was not saved during their first experience, and the second experience, the person was actually regenerated.
2. The person was saved during their first experience, but grew in their relationship with God and experienced a deeper level of relationship
3. The person is not saved, and is engaging in self-deception

My guess is that there are individuals in all of those categories.

I am not very open minded about "speaking in tongues", though....it seems like those making the claim often begin with someone instructing them how to "speak in tongues". I don't see anyone in Acts who had to be taught to engage in "speaking in tongues". However, there are so many youtube videos teaching how to "speak in tongues". Asking someone how they came to "speak in tongues" is informative..did they learn it from someone else? Did someone exert psychological pressure to get them to speak in tongues? Answers to these questions are instructive.

Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered. I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.
Click to expand...
I have only met them who have deluded themselves to believe that. One needs only to ask their family members and friends in private to know that claim is nonsense.

I John 1:8-10
 
T

TheLearner

Well-known member
#17
Jan 14, 2019
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#17
Dino246 said:
Where did you get this "basic idea"? I've been around pentecostal/charismatic churches for over 20 years and have never heard that. I don't accept it as a foundational belief for the "two-tier" experience, so so I consider moot the rest of your thesis.
Click to expand...
"
Question: "What is the Holiness movement / church?"

Answer: The Holiness movement/church is an influence within Christianity that teaches that a person can achieve perfect holiness, or sinless perfection, while on earth. This doctrine teaches “entire sanctification,” which usually comes via a spiritual experience that those in the Holiness movement refer to as the “second work of grace” or the “second blessing.” The Holiness movement is opposed by Reformed thinkers, who assert that original sin still exists in even the most faithful person.

The Holiness movement began in 1840 when a Methodist leader named Phoebe Palmer began to hold revivals and teach the necessity of holiness—and how to attain it. Groups and denominations historically associated with the Holiness movement include Wesleyans, Methodists, Nazarenes, and the Salvation Army. However, it should be noted that churches differ widely on doctrine, even within denominations. "https://www.gotquestions.org/Holiness-movement.html
 
S

Scribe

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#19
#19
QUOTE "UnitedWithChrist, post: 4008720, member: 287917"]I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years. The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time."

Whoever said this must be confused about the purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is to give power to be a witness. Luke emphasized the power of the Holy Spirit for spreading the gospel. Paul emphasized the work of the Spirit in sanctification. Many people have tried to interpret Lukes statements in the light of Paul's teachings. If someone is stating that the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts is to make carnal christians more holy they have misunderstood the text. The purpose of this second work of grace was for empowering to witness. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in every believer who puts their faith in Jesus Christ. This is sufficient for holy living and sanctification. A carnal Christian needs to repent and love Jesus more. They need to fear God and realize that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Speaking in tongues was not for sanctification but for witnessing, edification in the church with an interpreter and praying between themselves and God if there was not as Paul stated in 1 cor 14. I don't doubt you may have heard someone say they became holier after their experience but I think they were confused about the purpose of pentecostal experience. I suppose however if one is seeking God for the infilling of the Holy Spirit to be a witness such seeking after God is going to result in ever increasing holiness simply because you are praying for more of His power.
 
crossnote

crossnote

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#20
Nov 24, 2012
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#20
If this thread shows anything, it shows our experiences differ.
Because their is no definitive teaching on this also gives way to open expression of our various experiences...all of which do not rise to the authoritative level of Scripture.

My experience: Born again in Dec '72. For fifteen months I was slowly drawn to Christ by the dealings of His Spirit (through some visions and dreams and his Word). In Mat '74 completely giving myself to Him (in jail) experienced what I would call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When I left that jail, I would be bold to speak to anyone (and I did) including Hell's Angels about Jesus. I also left that jail full of peace, I had never ever experienced before (not even on reds) and abiding joy.
Having said that, I just don't believe we have enough biblical data to go one way or the other and I would prefer not to get into these type of debates except to encourage each other to seek the Giver of the gifts rather than the gifts themselves.
 
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