The Tabernacle in the Wilderness

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S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#182
#182
TLC209 said:
Well for one im not God so who gave me such authority to answer who goes or does not go to heaven? Im merely a man like you..

But if the person recieves the Holy Spirit before he dies God will not forsake His own. God knows the heart. Because He gives us a new heart when we recieve the Holy Spirit. Its the new covenant circumcision of the heart.

John the baptist even told Christ, I should be the one baptized of you. Because we need the Holy Spirit. The water baptism is being obedient to God and washing this temple for God to come and dwell in us... when we are submerged we are declaring this body is dead! And we are raised up in Christ with new life! The body is dead and all the corruption that our flesh continues to battle with our New heavenly Spirit. The Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit.

So i cant answer your hypothetical question. I can only tell you baptizm is a command. Ordered by God the Father, through the prophet John the baptist and Authorized by Jesus Christ.
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You either believe it is or it is not. You can not have it both ways.
Why are you on this site preaching that baptism is necessary but refuse to than past such a follish response?
 
TLC209

TLC209

Active member
#183
Mar 20, 2019
553
182
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Merced, CA
#183
eternally-gratefull said:
If a church teaches that baptism must come first before one is saved, and it is what washes our sins away, then that church is in error. And is NOT a church of God.

No church I have ever witnessed teaches against baptism They ALL (as with all of Gods NT commands) preach one should be baptised AFTER they are saved in obedience to God.. Just like with every command.
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Like I will continue to tell you. I do not agree with the manmade "saved"doctrine.

So before I get my head chopped off let me explain.

We are saved the day Jesus died and rose again. That day we all were saved. So whoever told u the day u prayed u were saved, is a lie. Jesus paid the penalty of our sins. It is now up to us to believe that Jesus is real, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah. If we believe we will act on our belief and obey what He teaches us. In following Him He sends us His Holy Spirit to seal us from the adversary. He said He would not leave us alone. We are saved from the grip of Satans chains and all the bondage the devil has had us in.

In this salvation we glorify God and spread the good news of what He has done, present tense... and the promise and hope we have in the resurecction to be with God is the future tense.

So to answer ur question being baptized is part of our walk with God. I do not follow a "saved" doctrine or formula. So if u got baptized 20 times good for them. If you got baptized once awesome! But what does being saved have to do with it?
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#184
Nov 27, 2018
5,251
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#184
SpoonJuly said:
So if a person trust Jesus but can not be baptized for medical reasons or dies before baptism is administered, that person will go to hell.

A simple yes or no answer would be appreciated.
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My comment to bluto was in response to his comment about the possibility that it was IMPOSSIBLE for someone to get water baptized.
There is nothing in the Word that addresses that. You are asking me to go beyond what is recorded in the Word.

The Word clearly says it must be done and is part of salvation. And only God has the answer whether circumstances that make it impossible change anything.
 
TLC209

TLC209

Active member
#185
Mar 20, 2019
553
182
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Merced, CA
#185
SpoonJuly said:
You either believe it is or it is not. You can not have it both ways.
Why are you on this site preaching that baptism is necessary but refuse to than past such a follish response?
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Maybe for you it is foolish. But for others it may open them up. We cant close our minds to deny baptizm. You are speakong hypothetically, but what stops YOU from being baptized?
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#186
#186
TLC209 said:
Like I will continue to tell you. I do not agree with the manmade "saved"doctrine.

So before I get my head chopped off let me explain.

We are saved the day Jesus died and rose again. That day we all were saved. So whoever told u the day u prayed u were saved, is a lie. Jesus paid the penalty of our sins. It is now up to us to believe that Jesus is real, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah. If we believe we will act on our belief and obey what He teaches us. In following Him He sends us His Holy Spirit to seal us from the adversary. He said He would not leave us alone. We are saved from the grip of Satans chains and all the bondage the devil has had us in.

In this salvation we glorify God and spread the good news of what He has done, present tense... and the promise and hope we have in the resurecction to be with God is the future tense.

So to answer ur question being baptized is part of our walk with God. I do not follow a "saved" doctrine or formula. So if u got baptized 20 times good for them. If you got baptized once awesome! But what does being saved have to do with it?
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This is very confusing.
Are you now saying that all are saved? That is what I get from this post.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#187
Nov 27, 2018
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#187
eternally-gratefull said:
No it does not say this,, Why will you refuse to give this up. Your making a doctrine on a few verses, when most of the NT tells us how to be saved, AND NOT by the way you interpret these verses.
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We do not agree.
 
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SpoonJuly

Guest
#188
#188
TLC209 said:
Maybe for you it is foolish. But for others it may open them up. We cant close our minds to deny baptizm. You are speakong hypothetically, but what stops YOU from being baptized?
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I was baptized in 1962 AFTER I was saved. Every born again believer should be baptized and should be an active member of a local church. That is a statement to all that they have been saved. Baptism has nothing to do with my salvation, your salvation, or any persons salvation
.
Not hypothetical, but fact---
My wife has a nephew that has been confined to a bed sense he was 8 years old.
He accepted Christ as his Savior at the age of 14.
He is now 24 and will never leave that bed.
He has never been baptized because his doctors will not allow it.

If baptism is necessary as some preach, he will go to hell.
Can you not see how wrong this teaching is?
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#189
Aug 4, 2016
2,103
531
113
#189
Wansvic said:
My comment to bluto was in response to his comment about the possibility that it was IMPOSSIBLE for someone to get water baptized.
There is nothing in the Word that addresses that. You are asking me to go beyond what is recorded in the Word.

The Word clearly says it must be done and is part of salvation. And only God has the answer whether circumstances that make it impossible change anything.
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So, there it is wansvic? What you and your church are doing/teaching is "resinging" someone to hell who has believed in the finished work of Jesus Christ because it is "IMPOSSIBLE" for them to get water baptized.

Like I told you from the beginning the thief on the cross did not get water baptized yet Jesus Christ told him he would be in Paradise with Jesus. And again, what about people who are bed ridden and can't get water baptized, you've resigned them to hell as well. And if you really want a wake up call, what about the millions of people in the last 2,000 years who became Christians but were not water baptized or like waggles says "they must speak in tongues" are they are all lost?

So tell me this, your church teaches that your the only ones that are truly saved and waggles fellowship church teaches they are the only one saved? Who's right? I'll tell you, both of your cults are wrong. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
TLC209

TLC209

Active member
#190
Mar 20, 2019
553
182
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Merced, CA
#190
SpoonJuly said:
This is very confusing.
Are you now saying that all are saved? That is what I get from this post.
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It is very confusing thats why I choose not to talk about it.

But I am saying salvation was given on the cross. All revolves around Jesus raising from the dead. We are freed, saved, redeemed, reconciled to God. Through what Jesus did on that cross.

Thats when we were saved. Everything else is up to us to accept it. We can only do that by believing on that. By truly believing. So only by believing our eyes can be opened and God speaks to us through His Word. We hear Him because we are His children.

If our dad says do not do this, or do not do that we are to obey our Father. Baptizm is one of those commands. And it is a blessing to feel clean through baptizm. To someone who does not truly believe its just being dunked in water. Theres no power without Faith.
 
TLC209

TLC209

Active member
#191
Mar 20, 2019
553
182
43
42
Merced, CA
#191
SpoonJuly said:
I was baptized in 1962 AFTER I was saved. Every born again believer should be baptized and should be an active member of a local church. That is a statement to all that they have been saved. Baptism has nothing to do with my salvation, your salvation, or any persons salvation
.
Not hypothetical, but fact---
My wife has a nephew that has been confined to a bed sense he was 8 years old.
He accepted Christ as his Savior at the age of 14.
He is now 24 and will never leave that bed.
He has never been baptized because his doctors will not allow it.

If baptism is necessary as some preach, he will go to hell.
Can you not see how wrong this teaching is?
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I agree with you brother. And sorry to hear for ur nephew. Water baptizm will not prevent Him from the love of God. For there is no depth no length neither place nor death that can stop the Love of God. God is merciful. He is an awesome God our minds cannot wrap around it. His ways are higher than our ways.

That is why I didnt answer your question because I dont have authority to say who will go to heaven or who will not. But I believe in your nephews salvation. He need not worry. Nor your family need not worry. People who make claims on a persons salvation shouldnt. We can only show what the bible says but only God is the judge of our souls. He is the God of the impossible. God bless your nephew. Thanks for sharing.
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#192
Aug 4, 2016
2,103
531
113
#192
TLC209 said:
Just because she believes in an error doesnt mean she is in complete error about everything. No one is right about everything. She was talking about being cleansed and the process we go thru as born again Christians. And she was spot on. You just dont like her denomination and choose to attack her for it.

I didnt know she was teaching something pentecostal? She was speaking the Word. Not all of the pentecostal church is just full of error. You cant deem a whole group just because of an error. Jesus doesnt do that, so why should we? Are you greater than Jesus? No one is above His master.

As for giving thumbs up im here to exhort and encourage those who need and deserve it. Im going to support my brothers and sisters in any aspect I can, regardless of what denomination they attend. This isnt a time to seperate as believers but to unify. The devil has much ground for Christians to fight among eachother. Pentecostal or not, she has the Holy Spirit. So thats enough for me. And even to the ones who do not have the Holy Spirit they have hope, so why give up on them. We once were lost ourselves. Im no one better than anyone else just because I have the Holy Spirit. I want others to experience Gods goodness, not roadblock them and push them down.... thats not Christ like.
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So tell me tlc, how do you determine small little errors from big errors? Obviously your not aware of the fact that there are in Orthodox Christianity certain "ESSENTIAL" beliefs that must be believed in order to be saved and these essential beliefs are "NOT" negotiable, period.

For instance, the deity of Jesus Christ that He is God in flesh is not negotiable. Being saved by faith and not works is not negotiable. Believe in the virgin birth. Belief in the resurrection of Christ or salvation through Jesus Christ alone. And the gospel as outlined at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Oh yea, there is only one God, i.e Monotheism, and the doctrine of the Trinity.

So, guess where wansvic and here church teaches that are refuted by these essential teachings? One is being saved by grace and not works. Number 2 would be her denial of the Trinity. In fact, they teach that Jesus Christ is God the Father and Jesus is also the person of the Holy Spirit. Would you call these little errors tlc?

Look how upset the Apostle Paul was at 1 Timothy 2:16-18. "But avoid worldly and empty chatter for it will lead to further ungodliness, vs17, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they UPSET THE FAITH OF SOME."

And one more thing the Apostle Paul stated at 1 Corinthians 11:19, "For there must be factions or divisions among you, (why), for the sake of truth or in order that those who are approved may have become evident among us." Paul is not advocating factions of divisions but they do happen. They serve the purpose of sifting the loyal from the disloyal, the good from the bad. The factions leave the genuine believers standing out (approved) by their loyalty, strength, and constancy. Those approved by God become manifest to other men. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#193
#193
TLC209 said:
Like I will continue to tell you. I do not agree with the manmade "saved"doctrine.

So before I get my head chopped off let me explain.

We are saved the day Jesus died and rose again. That day we all were saved. So whoever told u the day u prayed u were saved, is a lie. Jesus paid the penalty of our sins. It is now up to us to believe that Jesus is real, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah. If we believe we will act on our belief and obey what He teaches us. In following Him He sends us His Holy Spirit to seal us from the adversary. He said He would not leave us alone. We are saved from the grip of Satans chains and all the bondage the devil has had us in.

In this salvation we glorify God and spread the good news of what He has done, present tense... and the promise and hope we have in the resurecction to be with God is the future tense.

So to answer ur question being baptized is part of our walk with God. I do not follow a "saved" doctrine or formula. So if u got baptized 20 times good for them. If you got baptized once awesome! But what does being saved have to do with it?
Click to expand...
Ask the people you seem to be defending.
 
TLC209

TLC209

Active member
#195
Mar 20, 2019
553
182
43
42
Merced, CA
#195
bluto said:
So tell me tlc, how do you determine small little errors from big errors? Obviously your not aware of the fact that there are in Orthodox Christianity certain "ESSENTIAL" beliefs that must be believed in order to be saved and these essential beliefs are "NOT" negotiable, period.

For instance, the deity of Jesus Christ that He is God in flesh is not negotiable. Being saved by faith and not works is not negotiable. Believe in the virgin birth. Belief in the resurrection of Christ or salvation through Jesus Christ alone. And the gospel as outlined at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Oh yea, there is only one God, i.e Monotheism, and the doctrine of the Trinity.

So, guess where wansvic and here church teaches that are refuted by these essential teachings? One is being saved by grace and not works. Number 2 would be her denial of the Trinity. In fact, they teach that Jesus Christ is God the Father and Jesus is also the person of the Holy Spirit. Would you call these little errors tlc?

Look how upset the Apostle Paul was at 1 Timothy 2:16-18. "But avoid worldly and empty chatter for it will lead to further ungodliness, vs17, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they UPSET THE FAITH OF SOME."

And one more thing the Apostle Paul stated at 1 Corinthians 11:19, "For there must be factions or divisions among you, (why), for the sake of truth or in order that those who are approved may have become evident among us." Paul is not advocating factions of divisions but they do happen. They serve the purpose of sifting the loyal from the disloyal, the good from the bad. The factions leave the genuine believers standing out (approved) by their loyalty, strength, and constancy. Those approved by God become manifest to other men. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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I like what your saying. Its interesting with what you pointed out about Paul. And makes sense.

As for Wansvic... im sure she believes she is saved by Jesus Christ. There is no other salvation. Only Jesus paid for the redemption of our sins. You cant be forgiven any other way If He hadnt died. That is the definition of Grace when it comes to the scripture everyone uses when they use that phrase. Grace is Jesus Christ and through Him alone. Not by works so no one else could boast of themselves. So no one is saved because how righteous they are. The Holy Spirit is the only one righteous. We cant be righteous without it. We all fail.

Point 2, just because she believes Jesus is the Father, it is a small error in my opinion. Because they still acknowledge Jesus as God. They believe Jesus is the Father because of the scriptures in Isaiah. Where God told us " and His NAME shall be EVERLASTING FATHER".. His NAME means everlasting Father. Jesus is the Name. But Jesus is the Son having come in His Fathers NAME.

So its just more digging and searching the scripture. So to some it may seem like a huge error, but she still loves God and honors God. The only difference is the understanding of who Jesus is.
 
TLC209

TLC209

Active member
#196
Mar 20, 2019
553
182
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Merced, CA
#196
eternally-gratefull said:
Ask the people you seem to be defending.
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Im making all statements with everyone in mind. I know she is reading as well. Sometimes we can think something, and sometimes we need someone to point things out to observe and see if all we believe lines up with the Word.

I know the Holy Spirit in me will resonate with the Holy Spirit in her. And it is the Spirit who will lead us to all TRUTH. This is not about me or you or her. But that all Glory be FOR GOD.
 
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SpoonJuly

Guest
#197
#197
TLC209 said:
Im making all statements with everyone in mind. I know she is reading as well. Sometimes we can think something, and sometimes we need someone to point things out to observe and see if all we believe lines up with the Word.

I know the Holy Spirit in me will resonate with the Holy Spirit in her. And it is the Spirit who will lead us to all TRUTH. This is not about me or you or her. But that all Glory be FOR GOD.
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But false teaching, even it is from not understand, does not bring glory to God. Quite the opposite.
I really dislike being on this forum. I only continue so as to speak against those who teach a false Gospel.
Seems the false teachers out number those who teach the truth.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#198
#198
SpoonJuly said:
But false teaching, even it is from not understand, does not bring glory to God. Quite the opposite.
I really dislike being on this forum. I only continue so as to speak against those who teach a false Gospel.
Seems the false teachers out number those who teach the truth.
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Have endured all I can for one day so will go the Word for relief.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#199
Nov 27, 2018
5,251
1,106
113
#199
bluto said:
So, there it is wansvic? What you and your church are doing/teaching is "resinging" someone to hell who has believed in the finished work of Jesus Christ because it is "IMPOSSIBLE" for them to get water baptized.

Like I told you from the beginning the thief on the cross did not get water baptized yet Jesus Christ told him he would be in Paradise with Jesus. And again, what about people who are bed ridden and can't get water baptized, you've resigned them to hell as well. And if you really want a wake up call, what about the millions of people in the last 2,000 years who became Christians but were not water baptized or like waggles says "they must speak in tongues" are they are all lost?

So tell me this, your church teaches that your the only ones that are truly saved and waggles fellowship church teaches they are the only one saved? Who's right? I'll tell you, both of your cults are wrong. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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You could at least be honest about what I said: "The Word clearly says it must be done and is part of salvation. And only God has the answer whether circumstances that make it impossible change anything."

The instructions given that the NT church was required to follow were given after the Holy Ghost was received in the upper room. The thief died well before the commands were given.

No individual church denomination or anyone's personal opinion matters. The ultimate authority is God's Word.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#200
#200
TLC209 said:
Im making all statements with everyone in mind. I know she is reading as well. Sometimes we can think something, and sometimes we need someone to point things out to observe and see if all we believe lines up with the Word.

I know the Holy Spirit in me will resonate with the Holy Spirit in her. And it is the Spirit who will lead us to all TRUTH. This is not about me or you or her. But that all Glory be FOR GOD.
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One must have the ya first
 
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