Eternal torment VS Annihilation

Malachi 4:3, KJV: "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

As you just admitted above, the scripture is referring to the body, not the spirit. And regarding those sleeping, I have already, multiple times, have provided scriptures which show conscious awareness of the spirit after death, but you refuse to acknowledge them.

It is the body that is referred to as "sleeping" not the spirit. If you have the body dying and scriptures showing the spirit being conscious and aware, then you can only come to one conclusion, which is that sleep only refers to the body.

What do you think Jesus meant when He told the man next to Him "today you will be with me in paradise"? How is that possible when both of them died that very same day? The simple deduction is that at the time of the death of their bodies, their spirits departed and went to that same place of comfort where the spirits of Abraham and Lazarus were.

Regarding the conscious awareness of the spirit after death, we have the rich man who died and was in torment in flame in Hades, but you refuse to believe the plain literal meaning of that event in favor of interpreting it as being a parable. So in affect, you are getting rid of the proof that you seek regarding this matter by not believing in the plain literal meaning of scripture.

God is eternal, having no beginning or end. The human spirit is immortal, i.e. exists forever with both the righteous and the wicked receiving resurrection bodies. Life and death are both states of eternal existence based on an individuals state of being with God, life being eternal joy in the presence of the Lord in the kingdom of God and death being eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.

It goes around and around because you continue to fail to providing any scriptural proof of your claim.

The following does not prove annihilation, but only describes the destruction of the body. There is no mention of the spirit whatsoever.

Ashes under the soles of your feet = Body, not spirit.

"And it came to pass that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels Abraham's side. And the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, having lifted up his eyes, being in torment, he sees Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom.

In the scripture above we've got two guys whose bodies died. The spirit of Lazarus was taken to Abraham's side and the rich man was conscious and aware and could see, talk and feel pain from the flames. He could also remember his father and his five brothers, requesting to have Lazarus go and warn them so that they did not come to the same place of punishment. But because you turn it into a parable you circumvent the meaning of this information and then ask for other proof.

These verses offer some clarity on this point.

Ezekiel 28:14,19
14 With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you;
you were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked among the stones of fire.

19 All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more forever.

It does not say 'some more' forever but rather 'no more'.

And you believe that this means that the wicked are annihilated because of this one verse?

Firstly, this prophecy has a double application -- firstly to the evil king of Tyre (who exalted himself as a god), and then to Lucifer (who also exalted himself and wanted to be above God).

Since Lucifer (a spirit being or angel) became the Adversary (Satan), and Jesus said that Hell (Gehenna, the Lake of Fire) was prepared for the devil an his angels, and that their torment would be eternal, it cannot possibly mean that either the wicked king of Tyre or Satan would be extinguished, evaporated, or annihilated.

What it does mean -- in context -- is that the power of this evil king and his kingdom would be throughly destroyed, never to rise again. And historically that was fulfilled when Alexander the Great totally destroyed Tyre.

Hi Tourist!

So what do you do with the following scripture:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." - Revelation 20:10

Since we have a scripture which directly tells us what the fate of Satan is, which would have to be eternal existence in the lake of fire in order to be tormented day and night forever and ever, then the Ezekiel scripture that you are quoting above cannot refer to Satan meaning to cease to exist, otherwise the only option would be to completely ignore or falsely reinterpret the information in Revelation 20:10 above.

So, let's look at Ezk.28:14-19 which is obviously referring to Satan before and after his fall and which also states that he has come to a dreadful end, which could only be referring to his fall from his previous glorious state with God as the anointed guardian cherub (ker-oob). And the connecting reference being "no more forever" must mean that he will never regain his previous position with God ever again. As previously stated, it can' t mean that he will cease to exist and that because of the information in Revelation 20:10, as well as other scriptures.

Your choices are to circumvent or distort Revelation 20:10 and interpret the Ezekiel scripture as meaning that Satan will be annihilated or believe what Revelation 20:10 says and apply a different meaning to the Ezekiel scripture, which is not as defined in its meaning.

I certainly do agree that a biblical case can be made for each of these opposing points of view. It doesn't seem possible that they both are correct and improbable that they are both wrong. The verses from Ezekiel are indeed referring to Satan.

No, I don't believe that this single verse is conclusive evidence but there are many others as well a many verses that support the premise that the unsaved with be tormented in hell for all eternity.

Seems to me that if scripture was absolutely clear on this than there would be no debate whatsoever from other Christians who may hold to an opposing point of view. The same thing is true with water baptism, some believe that it is an integral prerequisite for salvation and other believe that it is simply an acknowledgement of the saving grass of salvation by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world. Also there are the faith vrs works peeps, faith and works peeps, law vrs. grace peeps, etc.

Again, while one view or another may be correct there remains countless debate on which spiritual point of view is correct. I guess it is all part of the learning process and some people are on one spiritual plane while others on a different one.

"Line upon line. Precept upon precept. A little here, a little there...".

Well then, if we go through with the rest of the comparison, since Revelation 20:10 says that the beast, false prophet and Satan will be tormented day and night forever and ever, then the Ezekiel scripture can't possibly be saying that Satan is annihilated. It's just the process of elimination. They can't both be correct.

I believe God speak for the people perspective

In people perspective those guy no more in the world forever, because they move to other dimension, they move to hell forever

Actually, for the most part, those different points of view are called false teachings. When you have for example, scripture stating that there is going to be a thousand year kingdom and that Satan is going to be restricted in the Abyss during that same time period. And you have people with those so-called different points of view saying "there is no literal thousand years" And that "Satan is not going to be literally bound in the Abyss," even though that is exactly what scripture states, then these are not simply different points of view, but erroneous interpretations based on the writings of men. I believe this has been happening in line with the following scripture:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

We have to be studiers of the word of God in order to know the truth so that we can't be deceived and so that we can contend for the truth. That is what these "different points of view" are all about, Satan's deceptions.

To all of those who still think that obeying the law is necessary for salvation, I'd say good luck with that, because they will not inherit the kingdom of God. And I guarantee you that no one is keeping it nor can they do so! When we trust in our own efforts, we are not trusting Christ's finished word on the cross.

Before you were born did you have any awareness? You are saying that every living person/angel or created being is immortal. The Bible tells a different story. Only God is immortal/eternal. We do not put on immortality until after Jesus returns to pass out rewards to righteous or wicked. God also did not promise eternal life to the wicked which would make him a liar if they were eternally tormented alive in the lake of fire.

Bible teaches us that God cannot lie and God said the wages of sin is death not eternal torment.

The wicked will have eternal punishment in eternal death because the wages of sin is death.

Bible tells us we will walk on the ashes of the wicked.

Side note I had no awareness before I was born and when I go to sleep at night I am not aware of what is going on around me as I sleep. Jesus referred to death as a sleep. If you don't understand what the state of the dead is then that is why I say so many believe the lie that satan told Eve that if you disobey God or sin you will not die. We know from the Bible that satan is the father of lies.

Again I ask the question who is the liar God or Satan?

That is a metaphor for the appearance of the corpse in repose within the grave. While the body lies sleeping the soul and spirit are very much awake and alive. Either in Heaven or in Hades.

As usual, you avoided addressing the scriptures that I presented and now jumping to your own set of questions. However, to answer your question, no, I did not have awareness prior to being born and neither did angels. However, you are confusing this with God who has no beginning or ending. Once the angels were created, they would exist forever. It is the same thing with every human being that comes into the world. They exist forever. Those angels that rebelled against God are still existing, either out in the world and some in the Abyss or Tartartus. Those angels will be judged at the great white throne judgment and will exist forever in torment in the lake of fire.

For human beings, at the time of death the spirit departs from the body and goes to its respective place either in the presence of the Lord or down into Hades. At the end of the thousand years, those spirits who are in Hades will also receive a resurrected body mete for their punishment and will stand before God for their official judgment where they will be thrown into the lake of fire and where they will exist forever in punishment in the lake of fire. Therefore, every person who is born into the world from that point forward exists forever.

This is exactly what you are not comprehending! You don't understand the term "eternal life." Conscious eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire IS NOT eternal life. Eternal life is only for those who are reconciled to God through the shed blood of Christ; those whose names have been written in the book of life. In opposition, those who have not been reconciled to God and die in their sins, suffer the second death for eternity. Both life and death are states of eternal existence

Life = Eternal existence in the presence of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal existence in separation from the Lord in the lake of fire

Your error here is that you consider eternal existence in separation from God as eternal life, when it is existence in the conscious state of death.

You continue to side step the scriptures that I have provided, which is what you are doing now. So, I am going to bring it up again: When Jesus was on the cross and said to the man next to Him "Today you will be with me in paradise," how could Jesus promise this to him when they both died that same day and the Lord body didn't resurrect until three days later? These are the deductions that you don't perform. You take only one side and sweep the rest under the rug. In order to arrive at any Biblical conclusion, on any given subject, It is important to consider all scripture, which is what you are not doing. So, when you reply, I want you only to comment on this question.

Satan is of course the liar and you are believing in his lies, because what you have been claiming is not what God's word says.

You never responded to any of the examples that I have given to you regarding the scriptures demonstrating the spirits of those who have died as being conscious and aware, such Moses and Elijah, the three references to those under the earth, the souls under the altar. To much to explain away, huh!

My only purpose is to contend for the truth of God's word and you are distorting it.

When someone raises a question, you don't answer it. All you do cite other scripture which seems to conflict with what the other person is saying. That's not giving an answer. That's just sticking your head in the sand. I did that too for a long time.

I have shown it to you. Others have also. Nobody can convince you that smoke and ashes = nothing if you choose to ignore it.

Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney. Hos.13:3

He's saying the wicked will disappear.

I've already shown you that "the great white throne judgment" is the judgment seat of Christ and why the unsaved will suffer in his presence.

Yes, you've quoted that on numerous occasions.

What you haven't done is consider that Satan is being tormented "day and night forever and ever" because he's being shown for what he truly is by the light of of Christ. His evil deeds committed "for ages and ages" are being exposed and his lies "for ages and ages" of being a god will be the ultimate embarrassment.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming 2Thes.2:8

It's the presence of Christ himself in glory, God Almighty, that is like a "lake of fire" to the wicked.

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psa.50:3

I have a simple question. John in revelations is saying all who take the mark of the beast will specifically
share the torment of the Beast eternally.

Now for this to be significant, it means sinners others would be destroyed and not tormented.
My understanding of salvation is sinners, who are lost, empty, unfocused individuals who when brought into
God presence fall apart, will just be destroyed. Their rebellion is lostness, not open rebellion in knowledge
of the truth, but in seeing life and the world and just staying in its contradictions, rejecting anything the Lord
laid out before them. So a mortal rebellion gets a limited torment followed by destruction.

Following the beast is going from being lost into eternal rebellion against the King, in a way that is obvious
and eternal. The signing up to lawlessness and evil will be complete with a rejection of love and life.
Today after seeing what is told about being shown on the dark web, there are people who are so far gone, they
already are this evil and lost.

The idea that a person who has made do in life is doomed to eternal torture seems disproportionate and like
saying a young child born into a disbelieving family, should be tormented for behaviour they have done before
the age of responsibility. Equally to say these children will automatically go to heaven contravenes the gospel
and Pauls writings. So this catagory of destruction seems to fit this reality. I am not saying this is "right" I am
saying on the balance of the issues and scripture, this seems to fit and for me seems just.

As usual, none of the scriptures that you have provided say anything about annihilation or extinction, nor have you explained why the wicked would also be receiving a resurrected body if they are just going to be burned up. You confuse body with spirit. And you ignore all the other scriptures that directly state that the punishment of the wicked is forever and ever, eternal and everlasting. The meaning for everlasting fire is in reference to those who will suffer in it.

The Bema seat of Christ is where believers are judged, not for sin, but for rewards for good works or loss of reward, where the great white throne judgment is where all of the unrighteous dead will stand before God and will be held accountable for all of their sins. The judgment of the saved and the unsaved are two different judgments.

Judgment of believers
"For all of us (believers) must appear before the judgment seat of the Messiah, so that each of us may receive what he deserves for what he has done in his body, whether good or worthless." - 2 Cor.5:10

Judgment of the wicked
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. - Rev.20:11-15

The two judgments above take place at least a thousand years apart.

However, I feel that I have spent enough time and provided adequate scriptures to show that the punishment of the wicked is eternal, i.e. never ending in separation from God in the lake of fire. So your belief and teaching on this matter you will be responsible for.

Let's not lose site of the scripture here, which says that Satan will be tormented in the lake of fire day and night forever and ever, with the emphasis being unending torment in flame. Furthermore, in your attempt to obscure the scripture, Satan's deeds and his lies do not need to be exposed because he is well aware of them. The scripture is simply saying that because of his rebellion against God that he will be tormented in the lake of forever, as well all of his angels and the wicked.

The scripture above is in reference to the man of lawlessness, i.e. the antichrist, which is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth and the beast is thrown alive into the lake of fire.

"But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.