Just a question
- Thread starter LeeLoving
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
GotQuestions gets it wrong some times. Ask yourself a few questions:
1. Does the Bible say that God's wrath is against sin and sinners?
2. Does the Bible say that Christ suffered in His soul for Sin (as well as in His total being)?
3. Does the Bible say that Christ was made Sin for us (He who knew no sin)?
4. So what do you think was happening for those three dark hours on the cross?
5. And why did Jesus cry in anguish "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
1. Does the Bible say that God's wrath is against sin and sinners?
2. Does the Bible say that Christ suffered in His soul for Sin (as well as in His total being)?
3. Does the Bible say that Christ was made Sin for us (He who knew no sin)?
4. So what do you think was happening for those three dark hours on the cross?
5. And why did Jesus cry in anguish "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
The answer to these questions is fairly simple and obvious. If Jesus took the punishment for YOUR sins, then He also took it for OUR sins. He didn't pick and choose who He took punishment for. 
He did it so that ALL of us could be saved..
He did it so that ALL of us could be saved..
-
1
- Show all
The answer to this is absolutely "YES!!". If Jesus didn't take your (a general your, not YOU) wrath on the cross then you still have it coming. I know this is an uncomfortable idea for some, and some can't stand the idea of an "angry God", but this is the reason the cross is such a HUGE thing, and it's "Just God" anyway not angry God. This was where God's mercy and justice met, not only was He willing to lay down His life to take this punishment, but He also had to put it on Jesus. It's amazing grace that saves us. This was the way God could be both perfectly just and merciful. It still blows my mind when I think about it, but you can rest assured that Jesus took 100% of everything that we had abiding on us, for those that come to Him are forgiven completely, and you can be assured God didn't do anything halfway.
-
1
- Show all
But the debt we have with God is punishment, or am I incorrect in that? Wouldn't it make sense that Jesus was punished by God in our place? I think I might be mixed up here because there's sort of two approaches (if not more) to this issue. There is Jesus being punished in our place, and Jesus paying our debt. I think they might mean the same thing, but it might be causing me trouble.
I think you are trying to overthink it here, not that it's a bad thing necessarily, but I think you are trying to break it in too many pieces. God was born into His own creation and lived as He created us to live. He came down teaching to point us to all truth. He told us through His word and actions exactly what He was going to do, how He was going to do it, and why it had to be done. There is really nothing more perfect than our Gods plan, but He laid down His flesh to be sacrificed for God's will. This was the ultimate show of the 1st commandment. This is the part we can relate too, the part we see and know, but Jesus had something that no man could ever pay, He had a Spirit still connected to God as we were created to have, This was what God severed and crushed on the cross to collect the wages that we all earned in sin, this was the price that no man could ever pay because we were born fallen with disconnected and dead spirits. This was the price, punishment, wage, just judgement we all had coming and Jesus not only laid down His life to take it, but the Father was willing to give His ONLY Son, with whom He was well pleased, up to take this so we might be reconciled to our Father, OH praise our God, Hallelujah, Jesus is KING!!!!! This is the good, good, news brother, if you are in Him, you no longer have to fear, He will guide you to all truth.
-
1
- Show all
Yes. Here are some verses that bear out the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross that you might consider:
KJV 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once
suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he
might bring us to God, being put to death in the
flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
KJV 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye
called: because Christ also suffered for us,
leaving us an example, that ye should follow his
steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile
found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was
reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he
threatened not; but committed himself to him that
judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare
our sins in his own body on the tree, that we,
being dead to sins, should live unto
righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
KJV 1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath
suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves
likewise with the same mind: for he that hath
suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
KJV Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our
griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did
esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and
afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our
transgressions, he was bruised for our
iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was
upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have
turned every one to his own way; and the LORD
hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
KJV Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without
strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die:
yet peradventure for a good man some would
even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his
love toward us, in that, while we were yet
sinners, Christ died for us.
KJV Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do,
in that it was weak through the flesh, God
sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful
flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to
be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our
sins, that he might deliver us from this present
evil world, according to the will of God and our
Father:
KJV Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us
from the curse of the law, being made a curse
for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that
hangeth on a tree:
KJV Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he
might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify
unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good
works.
KJV Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have
suffered since the foundation of the world: but
now once in the end of the world hath he
appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of
himself.
KJV Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered
to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look
for him shall he appear the second time without
sin unto salvation.
KJV 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once
suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he
might bring us to God, being put to death in the
flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
KJV 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye
called: because Christ also suffered for us,
leaving us an example, that ye should follow his
steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile
found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was
reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he
threatened not; but committed himself to him that
judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare
our sins in his own body on the tree, that we,
being dead to sins, should live unto
righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
KJV 1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath
suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves
likewise with the same mind: for he that hath
suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
KJV Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our
griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did
esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and
afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our
transgressions, he was bruised for our
iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was
upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have
turned every one to his own way; and the LORD
hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
KJV Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without
strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die:
yet peradventure for a good man some would
even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his
love toward us, in that, while we were yet
sinners, Christ died for us.
KJV Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do,
in that it was weak through the flesh, God
sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful
flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to
be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our
sins, that he might deliver us from this present
evil world, according to the will of God and our
Father:
KJV Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us
from the curse of the law, being made a curse
for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that
hangeth on a tree:
KJV Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he
might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify
unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good
works.
KJV Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have
suffered since the foundation of the world: but
now once in the end of the world hath he
appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of
himself.
KJV Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered
to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look
for him shall he appear the second time without
sin unto salvation.
-
1
- Show all
Jesus took our sinful behaviour and forgave us. He did this by dying as a result of mans sin,
taking the worst people could give Him, and then forgiving them.
By faith we accept the sins that killed him, were our sins, so the forgiveness He gave is the
forgiveness we receive through His freewill offering atoning sacrifice for our sins.
God did not punish Jesus, but through this action, nothing we could do would be counted
against us if we have faith in Him. But destroy this faith, and we stand alone, guilty of every
sin we have ever committed.
taking the worst people could give Him, and then forgiving them.
By faith we accept the sins that killed him, were our sins, so the forgiveness He gave is the
forgiveness we receive through His freewill offering atoning sacrifice for our sins.
God did not punish Jesus, but through this action, nothing we could do would be counted
against us if we have faith in Him. But destroy this faith, and we stand alone, guilty of every
sin we have ever committed.
-
1
- Show all
But the punishment was upon Him? Could you explain that for me? (if you want to of course)
How does Jesus' death atone for our sins and satisfy God's wrath if we're punished for our sins without Jesus' sacrifice but Jesus wasn't punished for our sins? Not arguing against the Gospel, just trying to understand.
How does Jesus' death atone for our sins and satisfy God's wrath if we're punished for our sins without Jesus' sacrifice but Jesus wasn't punished for our sins? Not arguing against the Gospel, just trying to understand.
Punished by men, yes. Punished by God, no. Look at what Peter says,
if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God....because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 1Pet.2:20-21
Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners for doing what is right.
when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, Lk.4:28
Paul said,
My aim is to know him....to share in his sufferings, and to be like him in his death. Phil.3:10
Paul suffered at the hands of ungodly men for obeying God, as Jesus did. Paul isn't saying he wants to experience Gods wrath. Keep yourself away from people who tell you Gods wrath fell on Jesus. That's heresy. People who teach such things are deceived and deceive others.
if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God....because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 1Pet.2:20-21
Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners for doing what is right.
when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, Lk.4:28
Paul said,
My aim is to know him....to share in his sufferings, and to be like him in his death. Phil.3:10
Paul suffered at the hands of ungodly men for obeying God, as Jesus did. Paul isn't saying he wants to experience Gods wrath. Keep yourself away from people who tell you Gods wrath fell on Jesus. That's heresy. People who teach such things are deceived and deceive others.
There are various ways of describing the reality.
1. We deserve death for our sins, but Jesus died in our place so we are forgiven.
2. Jesus took our behaviour, became the target of our sin, in its ultimate sense of rebelling and killing God
and forgave us, so cancelling out the guilt of the consequences of our sin.
So imagine I steal a car. I am driving around in it. God the ultimate owner of the car, loses His car,
and then freely gives it to the person who took it, saying it is theirs. So the action was a gift and not
a sin. The two things are equivalent, as in the gift nullifies the theft, if accepted as a gift. And it is this
crucial step of accepting the gift the nullifies the theft, else the theft still stands with its debt.
You can use language of judgement, and paying the debt, which is another way of explaining the transaction,
except for me, not as helpful.
Why I find the gift more helpful, because it is personal, it shows me, I am treated as if I have done nothing
wrong. It does not though mean if I do things wrong in the future there is not a debt recurring or resolving
my rebellion and heart is irrelevant, but rather the whole point. It is the door for a relationship with God,
to know His love and grace. And with the Holy Spirit dwelling in a cleansed heart, the beginning of an
eternal walk. And God provides a way of sanctification, transformation step by step into His likeness through
repentance, confession and walking in love.
1. We deserve death for our sins, but Jesus died in our place so we are forgiven.
2. Jesus took our behaviour, became the target of our sin, in its ultimate sense of rebelling and killing God
and forgave us, so cancelling out the guilt of the consequences of our sin.
So imagine I steal a car. I am driving around in it. God the ultimate owner of the car, loses His car,
and then freely gives it to the person who took it, saying it is theirs. So the action was a gift and not
a sin. The two things are equivalent, as in the gift nullifies the theft, if accepted as a gift. And it is this
crucial step of accepting the gift the nullifies the theft, else the theft still stands with its debt.
You can use language of judgement, and paying the debt, which is another way of explaining the transaction,
except for me, not as helpful.
Why I find the gift more helpful, because it is personal, it shows me, I am treated as if I have done nothing
wrong. It does not though mean if I do things wrong in the future there is not a debt recurring or resolving
my rebellion and heart is irrelevant, but rather the whole point. It is the door for a relationship with God,
to know His love and grace. And with the Holy Spirit dwelling in a cleansed heart, the beginning of an
eternal walk. And God provides a way of sanctification, transformation step by step into His likeness through
repentance, confession and walking in love.
I think it does.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain ...
Only a believer will benefit from the chastisement:
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain ...
Only a believer will benefit from the chastisement:
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Without complete justice, righteous wrath can't be satisfied.
Sin must be paid for, not swept under the rug and ignored. God's plan was to pronounce unjust people as "just" without lying in the process and consequently becoming Himself unjust.
Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God ...
Sin must be paid for, not swept under the rug and ignored. God's plan was to pronounce unjust people as "just" without lying in the process and consequently becoming Himself unjust.
Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God ...
I do believe you are wrong here brother. God did put our punishment on Him,
Isaiah 53:9-11
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in His death, although He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer. And when His soul is made a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11 After the anguish of His soul, He will see the light of life and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities.
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”.
How about
Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Why did Jesus ask why He had been forsaken? It hurt Him like nothing else could. I would like to dig a bit deeper here, in
Mat 26:39
Going a little farther, he threw himself down with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me! Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
What was in this cup? Here are a few verses that speak of His cup, and I try to keep in mind how Jesus is speaking of it because their are a few different descriptions of "cups" in scripture, so for example I don't think Jesus is praying for the cup of salvation from Psalm 116:13 to pass from Him. So here are some cups more likely to want to avoid-
Psalm 11:6
Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.
Matthew 26:42
Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.”
John 18:11
So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”
So many times, what is this cup that God wills Jesus to drink from?
It is the cup of wrath that abides on every mans head. It is our just wages, God put the just wrath I had coming in full force on Jesus head so that His love and mercy would be beyond question. Yes Jesus did that, yes the Father did that, yes the Spirit did that, and did it all for His glory, PRAISE HIS MAGNIFICENT NAME!!!!!
The truth is that He did put our punishment on His, and if Jesus hasn't taken a person's punishment and blessed them with His righteousness in a rebirth that changes that person forever, bringing thier spirit to life and reconciling it ti His Spirit, forever indwelling them to now have the ability to glorify the Creator in truth, oh PRAISE Jesus, HALLELUJAH!!!
I hope I didn't come off the wrong way here, and that I explained why I disagree clearly, I also look forward to your response, if you even respond, and hope you have a great day either way.
Isaiah 53:9-11
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in His death, although He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer. And when His soul is made a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11 After the anguish of His soul, He will see the light of life and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities.
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”.
How about
Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Why did Jesus ask why He had been forsaken? It hurt Him like nothing else could. I would like to dig a bit deeper here, in
Mat 26:39
Going a little farther, he threw himself down with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me! Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
What was in this cup? Here are a few verses that speak of His cup, and I try to keep in mind how Jesus is speaking of it because their are a few different descriptions of "cups" in scripture, so for example I don't think Jesus is praying for the cup of salvation from Psalm 116:13 to pass from Him. So here are some cups more likely to want to avoid-
Psalm 11:6
Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.
Matthew 26:42
Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.”
John 18:11
So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”
So many times, what is this cup that God wills Jesus to drink from?
It is the cup of wrath that abides on every mans head. It is our just wages, God put the just wrath I had coming in full force on Jesus head so that His love and mercy would be beyond question. Yes Jesus did that, yes the Father did that, yes the Spirit did that, and did it all for His glory, PRAISE HIS MAGNIFICENT NAME!!!!!
The truth is that He did put our punishment on His, and if Jesus hasn't taken a person's punishment and blessed them with His righteousness in a rebirth that changes that person forever, bringing thier spirit to life and reconciling it ti His Spirit, forever indwelling them to now have the ability to glorify the Creator in truth, oh PRAISE Jesus, HALLELUJAH!!!
I hope I didn't come off the wrong way here, and that I explained why I disagree clearly, I also look forward to your response, if you even respond, and hope you have a great day either way.