Predestination I think not.

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pottersclay

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#1
#1
Salvation for the Gentiles Thus says the Lord: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil.” Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the Lord Speak, saying, “The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”; Nor let the eunuch say, “Here I am, a dry tree.” For thus says the Lord: “To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off. “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant— Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.” The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “Yet I will gather to him Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

Your thoughts??
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#2
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#2
These words cover a lot of lesson! The very last part , about gathering Israel and others to Him is repeated when the Lord teaches us He is the Good Shepherd and He has another flock which He is to gather to His Original Flock...

Reading in faith explains just about all an individucal is given to understand. Praise God, amen.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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#3
(I think the link is still good....)

I firmly believe in Free Will, and I posted a Thread showing 4 pages of Scripture which I believe clearly establishes that man was given the gift of Free Will by God. In fact, I believe that the first gift God gave man was "life." The second was "free will."
Any who wish to know my reasons for believeing in Free Will can go to the Thread and read the Scriptures I posted.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-free-will-revisited.180137/
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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#4
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#4
BTW: In my opinion only I suspect, Predestination is the Father of OSAS. Folks who believe in Calvin's Teachings, believe they were saved from "the beginning" and nothing can change that, or keep them from Heaven. OSAS'ers believe that once saved, there is nothing that can keep them from Heaven. So, basically, OSAS'ers turn into Calvinists once they are saved. OSAS is Calvin Light I suppose........

:)
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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#5
Dec 12, 2013
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I believe in eternal security because the bible teaches it....and could care less what Calvin had to say on any issue....

Irrevocable means exactly that so does kept and lose nothing......!!!
 
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pottersclay

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#6
#6
I've always been against predestination preaching and teaching....I call it the gospel of no hope. I find it to share the same arrogance as the Jews of old had. Quite contrary to the nature and grace and love our Lord has for all and demonstrates throughout the Bible.
I've always believed that the Lord has purposed everyone for his glory in some form of fashion.
The Lord throughout his word ask us to "choose this day" on which way we will go explaining that one way is blessed and the other is cursed.
Not meaning that the blessed way is cake and roses for we are asked to endure times of trouble, to seek him as our refugee and strength. To abide in him, to not faint in well doing. Which puts a big dent in the second false gospel lie ..the prosperity gospel...the name it claim it lie which fixes your eyes on the gift instead of the giver. Making the house of God a den of thieves.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#7
Jul 24, 2016
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#7
pottersclay said:
Salvation for the Gentiles Thus says the Lord: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil.” Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the Lord Speak, saying, “The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”; Nor let the eunuch say, “Here I am, a dry tree.” For thus says the Lord: “To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off. “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant— Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.” The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “Yet I will gather to him Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

Your thoughts??
Click to expand...
My thoughts.... What has the scripture that you have quoted got to do with the heading for this thread ""Predestination i think not""" ?
 
G

garee

Banned
#8
Mar 28, 2016
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p_rehbein said:
(I think the link is still good....)

I firmly believe in Free Will, and I posted a Thread showing 4 pages of Scripture which I believe clearly establishes that man was given the gift of Free Will by God. In fact, I believe that the first gift God gave man was "life." The second was "free will."
Any who wish to know my reasons for believeing in Free Will can go to the Thread and read the Scriptures I posted.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-free-will-revisited.180137/
Click to expand...
All of creation to include the angels as messengers of the gospel were created with a will subject to the of the Creator in order to establish the government of God . Mankind experienced doing the will of another. The will of man that was subject to the Creator became subject to the god of this world . As a will in bondage.

No man or angel has a free will separate from the will of God .

A will that was freed from bondage to serve its Creator it is the food the disciples knew not of . Hearing the Father and doing his will as he works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure.

What you had offered below is not a invitation as multiple choice..but more of a recognition as to who has been given a new spirit that desires to do the will of another. HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT (verse 18) is still under the will of the father of lies.


Is “free will” Biblical?

Well, let us look at Scripture.

John 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 .) That WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 .) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 .) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 .) He that BELIEVETH ON HIM is not condemned: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT is condemned already, BECAUSE HE HATH NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Click to expand...
John 4:33-35 King James Version (KJV) Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest
 
Deade

Deade

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#9
Free will is like predestination, it does exist but we don't really know how it all ties into life. God can manipulate men's hearts while still leaving us room for our choices. We will never know if God directs a certain decision of ours. Like Romans 8:28 says, it will always be for our spiritual good.

I fully in believe predestination. I also believe we will never fully understand it while we live in the flesh. Some things will just have to wait until we are no longer looking through glass darkly (1 Cor. 13:12). I believe predestination does not negate our choices. How they work together is just speculation and above my current pay grade. Nuff said. :cool:
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#10
#10
The Bible says we are predestined in a few places

When people say they are against it what does that say about the?

It’s one thing to be against Calvinist version. It is another thing to be against the word
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#11
Jul 18, 2017
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#11
pottersclay said:
I've always been against predestination preaching and teaching....I call it the gospel of no hope.
Click to expand...
That's only because predestination has bee MISREPRESENTED.

1. Election and predestination are Bible doctrines.

2. God does not elect or predestine some for salvation and others for damnation.

3. God predestines all those who believe and obey the Gospel to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29,30) -- "we shall be like Him".

4. Since the Lord Jesus Christ is perfect in every way, all believers must be perfected supernaturally to be with Him for eternity. And that is the meaning of the image of His Son.

5. This Scripture gives us insight into this doctrine:

1 JOHN 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

"When He shall appear" is a reference to the Resurrection/Rapture.
 
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Locoponydirtman

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#12
#12
Isaiah 45:12-13
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.​
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.​


Psalm 65:4
Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.​

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​



Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​
Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?​
Acts 15:17-18
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.​

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.​

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.​
Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth​
Romans 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.​

Romans 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel​
Romans 11:5-7
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more* grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more* grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded​

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory​
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will​

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will​
1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.​
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth​

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness​
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.​



Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#13
Locoponydirtman said:
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Click to expand...
This verse us wrongly used to teach predestination for salvation. Context is critical, and the whole teaching of the Gospel and the Bible is that GOD OFFERS SALVATION TO ALL MANKIND. It is summed up here (Isa 45:22).

New International Version
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
English Standard Version
“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
New American Standard Bible
"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
King James Bible
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth. For I am God, and there is no other.
International Standard Version
Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth. For I am God, and there is no other.
Jubilee Bible 2000
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else.
American Standard Version
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.
English Revised Version
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Young's Literal Translation
Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is none else.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#14
#14
Nehemiah6 said:
This verse us wrongly used to teach predestination for salvation. Context is critical, and the whole teaching of the Gospel and the Bible is that GOD OFFERS SALVATION TO ALL MANKIND. It is summed up here (Isa 45:22).
Click to expand...
Except that the context of the verse is Jesus talking to his disciples who he called and they followed which is exactly how salvation works. And you can read into that what ever you want, but the text is clear in text and in context. Further more " all are called few are chosen" . You can deny what scripture says clearly and states in the text and choose reading into some passages what you want but that's all you.
 
P

pottersclay

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#15
#15
Nehemiah6 said:
That's only because predestination has bee MISREPRESENTED.

1. Election and predestination are Bible doctrines.

2. God does not elect or predestine some for salvation and others for damnation.

3. God predestines all those who believe and obey the Gospel to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29,30) -- "we shall be like Him".

4. Since the Lord Jesus Christ is perfect in every way, all believers must be perfected supernaturally to be with Him for eternity. And that is the meaning of the image of His Son.

5. This Scripture gives us insight into this doctrine:

1 JOHN 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

"When He shall appear" is a reference to the Resurrection/Rapture.
Click to expand...

Good explanation..
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#16
#16
Adstar said:
My thoughts.... What has the scripture that you have quoted got to do with the heading for this thread ""Predestination i think not""" ?
Click to expand...
In these scriptures the Lord surely shows his compassion on all nations. Not only to the jews but also the gentiles are called. Even those that are far away. The foreigner of Israel is excepted into the kingdom. Not defilyling the Sabbath those that joined to the Lord do so not in vain. A house of prayer to all nations.
Predestination not found in these scriptures but the true heart of God is. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whomsoever believes in the son who is the Sabbath is given everlasting life.
Doesn't sound exclusive to me😋😋
 
A

Adstar

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#17
pottersclay said:
In these scriptures the Lord surely shows his compassion on all nations. Not only to the jews but also the gentiles are called. Even those that are far away. The foreigner of Israel is excepted into the kingdom. Not defilyling the Sabbath those that joined to the Lord do so not in vain. A house of prayer to all nations.
Predestination not found in these scriptures but the true heart of God is. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whomsoever believes in the son who is the Sabbath is given everlasting life.
Doesn't sound exclusive to me😋😋
Click to expand...
Predestination depends on Gods foreknowledge of those who have / will accept His Gospel Way of salvation..

The doctrine of predestination has never stated that it was exclusive to one race or one people..

But it is exclusive to those who believe Jesus and accept the Atonement He secured for them on the cross..
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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#18
1 Corinthians 14:33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I believe in the Holy Trinity
I do not believe in the Holy Trinity
I believe Jesus is God
I do not believe Jesus is God
I believe in the Young Earth
I believe in the Old Earth
I believe Grace Only
I do not believe Grace Only
I believe we should Tithe
I do not believe we should Tithe
I believe water baptism is for salvation
I do not believe water baptism is for salvation
I believe women can not have authority over men or be Pastors/Leaders
I believe women can have authority over men or be Pastors/Leaders
I believe Once Saved Always Saved
I believe that God will never forsake us, but we can forsake Him
I believe in Predestination
I believe in Free Will
I believe the Holy Spirit is the Comforter promised to come to us and instructing us in all things
I believe the Written Word (Bible) is the Comforter sent to instruct us in all things
I believe we should observe the celebration of Foot Washing
I do not believe we should not observe the celebration of Foot Washing
I believe the New Earth will be our eternal home
I believe Heaven will be our eternal home
I believe the Ten Commandments are still in effect for the Church
I do not believe the Ten Commandments are still in effect for the Church
I believe Pre........ Post ......... A ........ millennial
I believe we must obey the Commandments of Christ
I do not believe we must obey the Commandments of Christ
I believe we should baptize "in the name of Jesus."
I believe we should baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

.............and on, and on, and on, and..............

SO: If God is not the Author of Confusion, why did He predestine so many people to believe so many different things, which has resulted in so very much confusion within the Church?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#19
Jul 18, 2017
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#19
p_rehbein said:
SO: If God is not the Author of Confusion, why did He predestine so many people to believe so many different things, which has resulted in so very much confusion within the Church?
Click to expand...
That's a tough one. One of the major reasons is that the doctrines of men entered into the churches and have continued to be perpetrated. All the more reason why every Christian should study the Word of God diligently, using all legitimate Bible study tools. Ultimately the Holy Spirit must lead us into all truth.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#20
Dec 15, 2018
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#20
Predestination is talking about Jesus. Its not talking about anyone else. I think people get it confused and think oh it must mean me as a believer.

Not so. GOds plan from the foundation of the world was for redemption of mankind, and to that end He sent Jesus. People did know, from all that time before Jesus was sent, that there had to be a Messiah. He came at the appointed time to set up a Kingdom at the appointed time. And he was sent to a particular group of people God had chosen, the Israelites. They were to be his peculiar (special) people, holy and set apart

But because not all believed, and rejected Him the way was open for the gentiles to believe. The differece is the Gentiles, who were not originally chosen, did not have the lineage or the language, actually had the heart to believe more than the Israelites when they heard the gospel!

GOd does not presdestine people to believe! Lol. Anyone who has that idea is talking a load of nonsense. Its clear that people make a choice whether to believe the gospel or not. jesus could be in your living room and having dinner with you right in front of your eyes and you STILL would have a choice whether to believe Him or not.
 
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